Okay, here's a doozy

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Valtiel

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Well I got to arguing with my brother again, and this time I was completely whooped, uttely overwhelmed and defeated…

First off we get at it over smoking and how my parents are disaproving of it, I’m 19 years old and smoking really isn’t that bad it infact has healt benefits (I’ve already argued this on the forums), but then he goes on to say that does not matter and that the Bible specificaly says to obey thy mother and thy father, but I say no it says honor thy mother and thy father. Well he then says “thats great you’re manipulating the bible, catholics always manuplate the bible”. I then told him how could that be, the catholic church put your bible together. He then went to say that the catholic church invented paying for sins, and paying for a realitive to get out of purgatory, which of course so lacking in apologetics I could not even begin to answer. He went on about early protestants, I told him that there were no early protestants, he blurted out “why do you think christians started leaving europe for america” I told him that was the 1400’s before that there were no protestants. He said “they were escaping the corruption of the church”. He then goes on to say that the church prevented people from reading the bible so that they couldn’t realize the bible was all that there was, that they could only read it in latin and that they wanted to keep everyone privy to what the bible really said, infact that they put to death anyone who tried to translate it. He said look in any history book, “you’ll see that they say this and much more about the catholic corruption”. I said that has to be only a few churches not the church as a whole, but he said it was happening all over europe. He goes on to how corrupt the church was in killing people, even cited Joan of arc in that they killed one of their own catholics and then made her a saint. He said the bible is all that you need, if you read it you’ll get all that you need to understand, but here is at least where things started to turn. I confronted him about the dilema of such a notion as sola scriptura, in which I got him on some circular reasoning and won that argument. Until his friend’s mom came in the room and completely overwhelemed me, so I cannot even begin to summerize all the points she made. I completely flopped, I should gone back to the begings over and over and explained more about the protestant reformation and their utter catholic beliefs before they went into current day protestantism, the church formed the bible so you have no claim to say we are making things up, and so forth but with some of the things he stumped me on I was just in a rut. But I’m seriously starting to again to sway in my faith, I mean in actuality the catholic church was so corrupt it seemed back them I cannot begin to summerize it all, I’m wondering of just reverting to hoodoo…
 
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Valtiel:
…I mean in actuality the catholic church was so corrupt it seemed back them I cannot begin to summerize it all, I’m wondering of just reverting to hoodoo…
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Or you could stop taking history lessons from people who don’t know what they’re talking about.

Just a thought.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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mlchance:
Or you could stop taking history lessons from people who don’t know what they’re talking about.

Just a thought.

– Mark L. Chance.
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I’m so tired of looking like the fool constantly and everytime their own faith reafirmed at my expense and then learning of this **** about the catholic church…
 
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mlchance:
Or you could stop taking history lessons from people who don’t know what they’re talking about.

Just a thought.

– Mark L. Chance.
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I need some proof that they don’t know…
 
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Valtiel:
I’m so tired of looking like the fool constantly and everytime their own faith reafirmed at my expense and then learning of this **** about the catholic church…
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Doesn’t sound to me like you’ve actually learned much if you believe what your brother was rambling on about. Get a few good books written by reputable historians. Start with Paul Johnson, the Chadwicks, and Philip Jenkins.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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mlchance:
Doesn’t sound to me like you’ve actually learned much if you believe what your brother was rambling on about. Get a few good books written by reputable historians. Start with Paul Johnson, the Chadwicks, and Philip Jenkins.

– Mark L. Chance.
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I’ve got a better Idea…

Maybe since I’ve just started my RCIA and next wednes day is heavy question night, I can make a propsition for him to come, and see some light…
 
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Valtiel:
I’ve got a better Idea…

Maybe since I’ve just started my RCIA and next wednes day is heavy question night, I can make a propsition for him to come, and see some light…
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Doesn’t sound like a bad idea, but it also doesn’t sound like much of a replacement for a solid education in Catholic history. 😉

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Protestants didn’t head to America until the mid to late 1500s and 1600s–after the Reformation. It was all Catholics in the New World from 1492 until then–and the Protestants were escaping the Anglican Church.
 
Many of your brother’s claims are refuted in Catholic Answers tracts. For example, the whole any one who translated the Bible was put to death myth. You can access them here: catholicanswers.org/ (read through the Library on the left)
 
First off, don’t get into heavy emotional arguments about religion. Everybody loses because they start to tune each other out.

I definitely can’t say I agree with you about smoking but that’s another topic. I can say that as long as you’re living in your parents’ house you should obey their rules. (OK. Enough said about that).

Are you looking to make a point with these people? Then stop talking and start living your faith. They aren’t going to hear your words but your faith in action will speak volumes.

Also, as a convert, I wouldn’t recommend getting the bulk of my religious education from a teacher. They don’t have time and they might not have the specific answers you need. You need to bury your head in a good book.

The Catholic Church isn’t perfect. Was it Bishop Sheen or someone else who said that 2000 years of priests couldn’t kill the Catholic Church? Your friends should be careful about throwing stones. There is no church that could withstand a few rocks.

Next time, disarm them by saying, “Well, I’ll have to do a little research on what you just said and then get back to you. People are people and the good Lord knows that we have had our share of sinners. Fortunetly, God is in control and brings us around. That is why he gave the keys to Peter and the Church is still here today.”

Then go do your research and get back to them.

I love your passion. Now, like everybody else, you have to harness it. God bless you, my friend.
 
I would like to put in my two cents worth.
#1: It would be well worth your time to read some good history books as the above posters have mentioned. I have read Triumph by HW Crocker, but there are many others better i’m sure.
#2: When arguing your faith, do not let them throw more than one argument at you at a time. That is unfair and shows intolerance and an unwillingness on their part to learn or be enlightened.
#3: Please quit smoking. When your parents ask of you what is best for you, you should obey them and honor them (and yourself) in that way. I don’t care what health benefits you think there might be from smoking, the dangers far outweigh the risks.
Good luck with your RCIA classes! My husband and i just finished ours this Easter and couldnt’ be happier. 👍
 
Start reading Catholic Answer tracts, top to bottom. Start reading “This Rock” on line, top to bottom. You can afford it.
 
It also seems your brother just wants to argue with you.

If it isn’t smoking, its religion. He also has this spaz-type of arguement style: he accuses, as you respond with facts, he jumps to another topic, he makes an accusation, as you respond with facts, he jumps… Its a cycle intentionally designed to fluster you and make you doubt your self, while wondering what’s up with your brother.

YOU need to take control of the conversation. In any arguement, you need to control your response and not have the other communicators provoke a response from you.

It is best to read, ‘Fundementalism and Catholicism’, and ‘Catholic Faith Handbook for Teens’ (though I’m nowhere near a teen, its a good book), and the tracts on the web site, take notes, and become confident in an area where your brother & mother ‘attack.’ If they go spaz-attack mode on you, take control, state you are answering this question now, and they need to listen to you like you listened to them. If they refuse to listen, then they do not want to know the answer; they just want to argue with you for some (selfish?) reason.

IF he/she/they sit back and listen, USE YOUR NOTES. Its ok, I promise. Nothing intimidates a bully-Protestant more than a Catholic referencing his Bible. (NOTE: only a very few Protestants are bullies, but bullies are everywhere in society, so know how to handle them). Go through deliberately, like you are teaching division to a 10 year old, don’t get sing-songy, but I doubt you would.

I recommend NOT inviting your brother to anything Catholic yet. He sounds angry and disgruntled, and not ready defend his faith with some ‘smart’ Catholics; he would only throw out stale accusations.

For your mom, tell her you love her, tell her you will honour her, but that does not mean to do everything she states, because she is human and you believe she is asking you to go against the teachings of Jesue, God Our Father. and where the Holy Spirit is leading you. I’d imagine she’d be upset; maybe you can compose it nicer.

Yeah, you should quit smoking. They’re over $5 a pack in Michigan. It’s RIDICULOUS!

Thank you.
 
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MrsCinMI:
It also seems your brother just wants to argue with you.

If it isn’t smoking, its religion. He also has this spaz-type of arguement style: he accuses, as you respond with facts, he jumps to another topic, he makes an accusation, as you respond with facts, he jumps… Its a cycle intentionally designed to fluster you and make you doubt your self, while wondering what’s up with your brother.

YOU need to take control of the conversation. In any arguement, you need to control your response and not have the other communicators provoke a response from you.

It is best to read, ‘Fundementalism and Catholicism’, and ‘Catholic Faith Handbook for Teens’ (though I’m nowhere near a teen, its a good book), and the tracts on the web site, take notes, and become confident in an area where your brother & mother ‘attack.’ If they go spaz-attack mode on you, take control, state you are answering this question now, and they need to listen to you like you listened to them. If they refuse to listen, then they do not want to know the answer; they just want to argue with you for some (selfish?) reason.

IF he/she/they sit back and listen, USE YOUR NOTES. Its ok, I promise. Nothing intimidates a bully-Protestant more than a Catholic referencing his Bible. (NOTE: only a very few Protestants are bullies, but bullies are everywhere in society, so know how to handle them). Go through deliberately, like you are teaching division to a 10 year old, don’t get sing-songy, but I doubt you would.

I recommend NOT inviting your brother to anything Catholic yet. He sounds angry and disgruntled, and not ready defend his faith with some ‘smart’ Catholics; he would only throw out stale accusations.

For your mom, tell her you love her, tell her you will honour her, but that does not mean to do everything she states, because she is human and you believe she is asking you to go against the teachings of Jesue, God Our Father. and where the Holy Spirit is leading you. I’d imagine she’d be upset; maybe you can compose it nicer.

Yeah, you should quit smoking. They’re over $5 a pack in Michigan. It’s RIDICULOUS!

Thank you.
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Thanks…
That is the problem I can never really get a hndle on it because it’s going all over the place and I’m rushing to think of a responce for each. But no he’s dead set in his faith, I asked him why do you think protestansim is right, he said “because I’ve found it to be more truthful and I haven’t been able to proove it wrong”. But I’ve invited him to RCIA, he won’t come, says people their are more advanced then he is and wouldn’t be able to respond. I don’t know what to tell him anymore, he just won’t see it any other way.

And yes both my mother and father disaproove of my smoking, I’ve told them over and over that smoking statistics are either flat out false, overblown and taken out of context, or flawed. I’ve tried to get them to read some articles and a book debunking all the anti smoking hysteria, but nope they refuse to read saying it’s biased pap from a smoker. My family is so amusing, but gotta love them…

Yeah, a lot of it has to do with taxes, some places it’s 25$ a pack, and most of it is the anti smoking crowd hootin and holarin a strom over their crapola. There really cheap down here, 2$ a pack, but thats for the cheap chemical laddened proccessed junk. I go for the imports which are far more pure, expensive though, about 5$ a pack. Fortunetly I only go through a pack a week so that doesn’t get too expensive for me. Right now I’m stuck on Djarum Black clove cigarettes, one the finest smokes you’ll ever find…
 
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badebop:
Start reading Catholic Answer tracts, top to bottom. Start reading “This Rock” on line, top to bottom. You can afford it.
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Yep, it’s all online for free:D
 
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Valtiel:
Thanks…
My family is so amusing, but gotta love them…
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The apple does not fall far from the tree. You aren’t any more open to listening to anti-smoking talk than your brother is to listening to anti-Protestant talk. both of you have made up your minds and are absolutely sure you are right. Maybe it is a family trait.

Perhaps if you could think about what it would take for you to open up to hear what they have to say about smoking, or what type of proof you would need before you would consider that smoking might be bad for you, then you could understand what type of proof your brother might need to begin to take a serious look at Catholicism. It sounds as if you and he have much in common.

cheddar
 
A highly unschooled answer to some of the issues (misuse of indugences - execution of joan of ark - present day crisis in the church)

The Church has been here since Christ instituted it approx. 2000 years ago. He said Satan would not prevail against the Church and Satan has not. Yet the Church is composed of fallible human beings and has had some historical problems in the past. The problems are not because the Catholic church is not the true church, the problems are because the church is made up of fallible men.

To look back on 2000 years of church history and choose some of these issues to use as reasons Catholicism is not the true church instituted by Christ is illogical and wrong.

I’d make this point then ask if you and your brother could stick to issues of doctrine and Catholic dogma. Otherwise you get into a debate where whoever throws the most dirt wins which most often leads nowhere.
 
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