"Old" and "New" Catholicism

[MrPip]

Hi Everybody!

I’m new here, so please forgive any errors of protocol, etc. I’m not sure if this is the correct place to ask this, but it seemed somehow logical to at least start here.

So, I have a question: The Church “split” formally in 1054 into what are now known as the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. Before that they were, at least in theory, one Church. My question is this: How is the Roman Catholic Church of today, in it’s very essence (not quite sure what that means–sorry) different from the Church of, say, 1053?

I look forward to your answers and discussion!

Thanks!

 

[wisdomseeker]

She is no different. does she teach the same as back then? yes, she does.

although the Liturgy has been tempered with in the last forty years, she still the same.

One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. its not rome Catholic Church. It is the Catholic Church.

 

[MrPip]

Thanks, wisdomseeker.

That’s pretty much how I look at it, but wanted others’ views, too.

Your answer begs another question: Why do not the “Roman” Catholic Church and the “Orthodox” Church reciprocate with the sacraments? After all, from what I understand, the anathemas/ex-communications of 1054 have been withdrawn, have they not?

 

[StevieD]

Why do not the “Roman” Catholic Church and the “Orthodox” Church reciprocate with the sacraments? After all, from what I understand, the anathemas/ex-communications of 1054 have been withdrawn, have they not?

As far as I am aware the GOC does not even recognise Latin orders (the ROC does, I understand). The leader of the Orthodox Church in Cyprus was quoted as calling the Pope a layman so the situation doesn’t look good, as sometimes occurs the local churches do not regard themselves bound by Constantinople’s decisions. The Catholic Church recognises OC orders and sacraments, thus Catholics would be permitted to receive Orthodox Eucharist where no Catholic church is available but the OC priests are not permitted to distribute it to us.

 

[WetCatechumen]

As far as I am aware the GOC does not even recognise Latin orders (the ROC does, I understand). The leader of the Orthodox Church in Cyprus was quoted as calling the Pope a layman so the situation doesn’t look good, as sometimes occurs the local churches do not regard themselves bound by Constantinople’s decisions. The Catholic Church recognises OC orders and sacraments, thus Catholics would be permitted to receive Orthodox Eucharist where no Catholic church is available but the OC priests are not permitted to distribute it to us.

Likewise Orthodox are welcome to receive sacraments in case of necessity from Catholic priests, but we exhort all Orthodox to follow their own canons and their bishops.

 

[MrPip]

Likewise Orthodox are welcome to receive sacraments in case of necessity from Catholic priests, but we exhort all Orthodox to follow their own canons and their bishops.

Yes, I understand all of this, and thanks for the reply. However, it really doesn’t answer my questions, I’m afraid. (Gee, one might think I’m one of those dreaded “ecumenists”)

If the canonical actions that “split” the Church have been “undone”, so to speak, are not the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church now truly THE One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church? Or am I just being incredibly naive?

 

[Scoobyshme]

Yes, I understand all of this, and thanks for the reply. However, it really doesn’t answer my questions, I’m afraid. (Gee, one might think I’m one of those dreaded “ecumenists”)

If the canonical actions that “split” the Church have been “undone”, so to speak, are not the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church now truly THE One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church? Or am I just being incredibly naive?

Unlike Protestantism, both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are Apostolic, i.e., they have Apostolic Succession and, therefore, all seven Sacraments.

I think that we can reunify, but according to one Orthodox guy who was working on the joint committee on reunification, the biggest problem will be cultural and psychological for the Orthodox.

We allow Orthodox to receive Communion in our Church, but they do not reciprocate, from what I’m told. In other words, if we’re on vacation, and can’t find a Catholic Church, the Catholic Church says it’s okay to attend an Orthodox Church, but the Orthodox Church says we’re not welcome.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

If the canonical actions that “split” the Church have been “undone”, so to speak, are not the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church now truly THE One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church? Or am I just being incredibly naive?

I’ve never read any of the details about the “withdrawal” of the mutual excommunications, but regardless of what they were intended to do, the gestures had no practical effect - the Orthodox remain outside of communion with the See of Peter and thus persist in schism.

 

[MrPip]

I’ve never read any of the details about the “withdrawal” of the mutual excommunications, but regardless of what they were intended to do, the gestures had no practical effect - the Orthodox remain outside of communion with the See of Peter and thus persist in schism.

So, if one is part of a “schismatic” “church”, i.e. Orthodox, does that make them “non”-Catholic, as in no longer part of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, and therefore unable to receive sacraments?

 

[Pregustator]

So, if one is part of a “schismatic” “church”, i.e. Orthodox, does that make them “non”-Catholic, as in no longer part of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, and therefore unable to receive sacraments?

You could save us all the bother of walking up alot of little steps to the point by just making the thrust of your questions clear. What do you want to know about the Catholic and Orthodox Churches from us fallible amateurs here in this forum that you cannot find in books or on the internet?

 

[MrPip]

You could save us all the bother of walking up alot of little steps to the point by just making the thrust of your questions clear. What do you want to know about the Catholic and Orthodox Churches from us fallible amateurs here in this forum that you cannot find in books or on the internet?

Well…let’s see…I think the thrust of my questions is clear. At least I’m trying to be clear.

I think it’s pretty obvious from my questions what I want to know. I’m not aware of any hidden agenda. I can’t help it if answers to some questions raise other questions. And, last I checked, this is the internet, no? If you have suggestions about specific books or web-sites that will answer these questions, please suggest!

Besides, what’s wrong with a little discussion?

 

[StevieD]

Well…let’s see…I think the thrust of my questions is clear. At least I’m trying to be clear.

I think it’s pretty obvious from my questions what I want to know. I’m not aware of any hidden agenda. I can’t help it if answers to some questions raise other questions. And, last I checked, this is the internet, no? If you have suggestions about specific books or web-sites that will answer these questions, please suggest!

Besides, what’s wrong with a little discussion?

catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/Orthodox%20churches/page2

Nothing wrong with discussion but if you want to know the Catholic position, you could go to the above link for a start so that you are clear about what the starting points are.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Thanks, wisdomseeker.

That’s pretty much how I look at it, but wanted others’ views, too.

Your answer begs another question: Why do not the “Roman” Catholic Church and the “Orthodox” Church reciprocate with the sacraments? After all, from what I understand, the anathemas/ex-communications of 1054 have been withdrawn, have they not?

I am not sure about the lift of excommunication, this should be a question answered by the Orthodox church, since they are the ones imposing difficulties in the reunification and not the Catholic Church.

the Catholic Church has no problem having you guys over for the Sacraments. the Orthodox is the one wiht the problem. again this question should be answered by the EO.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

To the OP,

You may get better results by moving this thread to the Eastern Catholic forum. The people there are generally more knowledgeable in Catholic/Orthodox relations.

To your question as to why we don’t celebrate together the “Lord’s Eucharist” as the Catechism puts it; that really is the great mystery and there are a good deal of both theological and political issues involved. In my opinion the political issues far outweigh the theological difference. Any theological difference is usually simply brought out to support a political issue. The main argument, however, goes something along these lines: “We don’t share Communion because the Faith is not the same.” I’ll leave it to others much more knowledgeable than I to determine whether or not the Faith between Catholics and Orthodox is the same. The more I look into it the more I am convinced that the Faith is one, but Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy/Catholicism (I mean here the Eastern Catholic Churches as well) have different ways of expressing the Faith and even a difference in belief with regards to the “non-essentials” of the Faith. But in essentials the Faith is one. So there really is no justification of division other than one side (Catholic or Orthodox) trying to impose its own authentic tradition and approach to the Faith on the other.

 

[Pregustator]

Well…let’s see…I think the thrust of my questions is clear. At least I’m trying to be clear.

I think it’s pretty obvious from my questions what I want to know. I’m not aware of any hidden agenda. I can’t help it if answers to some questions raise other questions. And, last I checked, this is the internet, no? If you have suggestions about specific books or web-sites that will answer these questions, please suggest!

Besides, what’s wrong with a little discussion?

So then the essential question is what about the Roman Catholic Church of the eleventh century is different about the Roman Catholic Church in the 21st century? Or is the essential question whether or not the Roman Catholic Church combined with all the apostolic Churches of the East together comprise the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church?

If the first question, where does one begin? If the second, it depends on who you ask. In the midst of the ongoing process of ecumenical dialogue and attempts at reconciliation between Rome and the various Churches of the East, I think it’s difficult to offer a simplistic answer. The RCC regards any certainly apostolic Eastern Church as a genuine ecclesiastical body, to be sure, but do we all, together, form one Church at this point? It would really be stretching things to say so. I think one can, in fact, say no. I don’t even imagine that all the Eastern apostolic Churches regard themselves as one, single Church or that they even perceive a need to become but one Church. The Russian Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Church are, after all, two Churches, not one. They may be in communion with one another, but they are not governed by a single hierarchy.

If not even the Russian Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Church are one Church, then certainly the Roman Catholic Church with them (with all of them) cannot be legitimately looked upon as one, single Christian Church.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

So then the essential question is what about the Roman Catholic Church of the eleventh century is different about the Roman Catholic Church in the 21st century? Or is the essential question whether or not the Roman Catholic Church combined with all the apostolic Churches of the East together comprise the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church?

If the first question, where does one begin? If the second, it depends on who you ask. In the midst of the ongoing process of ecumenical dialogue and attempts at reconciliation between Rome and the various Churches of the East, I think it’s difficult to offer a simplistic answer. The RCC regards any certainly apostolic Eastern Church as a genuine ecclesiastical body, to be sure, but do we all, together, form one Church at this point? It would really be stretching things to say so. I think one can, in fact, say no. I don’t even imagine that all the Eastern apostolic Churches regard themselves as one, single Church or that they even perceive a need to become but one Church. The Russian Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Church are, after all, two Churches, not one. They may be in communion with one another, but they are not governed by a single hierarchy.

If not even the Russian Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Church are one Church, then certainly the Roman Catholic Church with them (with all of them) cannot be legitimately looked upon as one, single Christian Church.

The problem here is that there really isn’t just one Catholic Church governed by a single hierarchy. The Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church are not synonymous. The term “Catholic Church” refers to the entire communion of 20+ particular sui juris (self-governing) Churches. “Roman Catholic Church” on the other hand, simply refers to one particular sui juris Church within the Catholic Church. My Church, for example, is not the Roman Catholic Church, but the Melkite Greek Catholic Church. We Melkites, as almost all other Eastern Catholic Churches, while in communion with the Church of Rome, have our own hierarchy, our own synod of Bishops, our own disciplines, etc. We are not directly subject to the Pope of Rome, but to the Patriarch of Antioch, of Alexandria and Jerusalem and all the East (the official title of the Melkite Patriarch, currently Gregorios III Laham), along with his synod of bishops. Our Patriarch and Bishops, as successors of the Apostles, are part of the College of Apostles, whose head is the Bishop of Rome as first among equals. I hope you can see from this that Catholic ecclesiology isn’t as simple as the idea that the Pope governs and everyone else just does what they’re told.

Again to the OP, I suggest that this thread be moved to the Eastern Catholic forum, as I’m sure you’ll get the responses you are looking for there.

Oh, and yes the Roman Church does look almost completely different than it did in 1054, but so too do the Orthodox Churches. But externals can be deceiving. In the essentials of the Faith the Roman Church and Orthodoxy believe what has been believed everywhere and by everyone.

 

[MrPip]

Phillip, your idea of moving the thread is a good one. Being new here, how do I do that? (I know, it’s probably dead obvious, but this is me we’re talking about !)

Apart from that, however, I did want to get the take of those who identify more with the traditional Latin church, too. I’ve a fairly good idea what most “Orthodox” would say.

Thanks!

 

[MrPip]

Very curious!

I asked how to move this thread to the Eastern Catholic forum but it ended up here. Without me doing anything! Spooky! Can anyone explain?

Thanks!

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I think the moderators are the ones in charge of moving threads. Why they moved it here is beyond me.

I apologize for suggesting you move it if you were simply looking for the opinions of traditionally-minded Catholics, although I’m sure you’ll get that here too.

 

[MrPip]

I think the moderators are the ones in charge of moving threads. Why they moved it here is beyond me.

I apologize for suggesting you move it if you were simply looking for the opinions of traditionally-minded Catholics, although I’m sure you’ll get that here too.

Oh well…Not your fault. To use an expression I hate, “It is what it is”.

I really appreciate your thoughtful replies, by the way. Thanks!