"Old" and "New" Catholicism

[Todd520]

So, I have a question: The Church “split” formally in 1054 into what are now known as the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. Before that they were, at least in theory, one Church. My question is this: How is the Roman Catholic Church of today, in it’s very essence (not quite sure what that means–sorry) different from the Church of, say, 1053?

Well, the scripture hasn’t changed but the traditions and practices certainly have changed/evolved.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Oh well…Not your fault. To use an expression I hate, “It is what it is”.

I really appreciate your thoughtful replies, by the way. Thanks!

Thank you, MrPip! I try and do as much as I can with my limited knowledge.

 

[Hesychios]

I am not sure about the lift of excommunication, this should be a question answered by the Orthodox church, since they are the ones imposing difficulties in the reunification and not the Catholic Church.

No they are not!

Orthodox are very open to communing Roman Catholics who are willing to abjure errors. That has always been the case.

If the RC would just roll back it’s problematic developments we could have inrtercommunion straightaway. Orthodox wouldn’t take over, the RC could run it’s own church in it’s own way like any other self-governing Orthodox church.

 

[Nicea325]

Hi Everybody!

I’m new here, so please forgive any errors of protocol, etc. I’m not sure if this is the correct place to ask this, but it seemed somehow logical to at least start here.

So, I have a question: The Church “split” formally in 1054 into what are now known as the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. Before that they were, at least in theory, one Church. My question is this: How is the Roman Catholic Church of today, in it’s very essence (not quite sure what that means–sorry) different from the Church of, say, 1053?

I look forward to your answers and discussion!

Thanks!

Well the term “Roman” is a specific Rite just as there exist Eastern Rites in communion with Rome. It had always been known as Catholic and it included our Eastern Christians.

 

[Nicea325]

No they are not!

Orthodox are very open to communing Roman Catholics who are willing to abjure errors. That has always been the case.

If the RC would just roll back it’s problematic developments we could have inrtercommunion straightaway. Orthodox wouldn’t take over, the RC could run it’s own church in it’s own way like any other self-governing Orthodox church.

Hesychios you need to eat some humble pie. Whether you care to admit it or not,many Orthodoxs are also making it difficult. Time to come down to earth and swallow some pride. Honestly…

 

[Reuben_J]

To the OP,

You may get better results by moving this thread to the Eastern Catholic forum. The people there are generally more knowledgeable in Catholic/Orthodox relations.

To your question as to why we don’t celebrate together the “Lord’s Eucharist” as the Catechism puts it; that really is the great mystery and there are a good deal of both theological and political issues involved. **In my opinion the political issues far outweigh the theological difference. Any theological difference is usually simply brought out to support a political issue. **The main argument, however, goes something along these lines: “We don’t share Communion because the Faith is not the same.” I’ll leave it to others much more knowledgeable than I to determine whether or not the Faith between Catholics and Orthodox is the same. The more I look into it the more I am convinced that the Faith is one, but Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy/Catholicism (I mean here the Eastern Catholic Churches as well) have different ways of expressing the Faith and even a difference in belief with regards to the “non-essentials” of the Faith. But in essentials the Faith is one. So there really is no justification of division other than one side (Catholic or Orthodox) trying to impose its own authentic tradition and approach to the Faith on the other.

I think this is the the stumbling block to reunification between the two churches. What happened in History that led to the schism had impacted deep hurt especially to the Orthodox. Any likely move for reunification needs first of all to admit this and to heal it. Forgiveness and healing on both sides need to be done and then let common sense prevails towards a reunification of a one Church.

 

[Nine_Two]

I’d like to note that the OP makes an error in assuming everything happened in 1054. 1054 is simply a convenient date.

The events of 1054 are largely around the place of the Bishop of Rome over the other Patriarchs. Since that time the RC position has only moved further from the Orthodox position, although surprisingly quite recently, first the rise of ultramontanism as a dominant belief of the place of the pope over other bishops, and then with Vatican I and the declaration that he is infallible when speaking ex cathedra.

Some other issues that have arrisen is that over the years the Catholic Church has dogmatized a great many things, although these beliefs are almost always present in the East (the Assumption of Mary, Purgatory, etc) they are not required belief, creating a conflict over what is required for salvation.

The place of the pope in the church, which is largely non-doctrinal, is probably the biggest issue preventing the Catholic Church from rejoining the Orthodox in Communion, The later issues regarding doctrine are not themselves without issue.

 

[MrPip]

I’d like to note that the OP makes an error in assuming everything happened in 1054. 1054 is simply a convenient date.

The events of 1054 are largely around the place of the Bishop of Rome over the other Patriarchs. Since that time the RC position has only moved further from the Orthodox position, although surprisingly quite recently, first the rise of ultramontanism as a dominant belief of the place of the pope over other bishops, and then with Vatican I and the declaration that he is infallible when speaking ex cathedra.

Some other issues that have arrisen is that over the years the Catholic Church has dogmatized a great many things, although these beliefs are almost always present in the East (the Assumption of Mary, Purgatory, etc) they are not required belief, creating a conflict over what is required for salvation.

The place of the pope in the church, which is largely non-doctrinal, is probably the biggest issue preventing the Catholic Church from rejoining the Orthodox in Communion, The later issues regarding doctrine are not themselves without issue.

Thanks for pointing that out. However, I was and am aware of the process that occurred over many years, ultimately leading to the split. I was using 1054 as a point in time for reference from which to start my query and the discussion. I’m well aware that saying that 1054 was the point in time at which everything that split the Church happened is a little like saying that everything is either black or white. Or something like that. It’s early and the coffee hasn’t reached my brain yet .

 

[wmscott]

No they are not!

Orthodox are very open to communing Roman Catholics who are willing to abjure errors. That has always been the case.

If the RC would just roll back it’s problematic developments we could have inrtercommunion straightaway. Orthodox wouldn’t take over, the RC could run it’s own church in it’s own way like any other self-governing Orthodox church.

Just asking because I do not know…what are the problematic developments that you indicate are separating us . thanks

 

[Hesychios]

Hesychios you need to eat some humble pie. Whether you care to admit it or not,many Orthodoxs are also making it difficult. Time to come down to earth and swallow some pride. Honestly…

What people advocate (whether they know it or not) when they say we Orthodox and Roman Catholics should be united, or when they advocate open communion between us, is that we should become indifferent.

If you objected to sharing communion with Lutherans and Methodists without their conversion, how would you react to someone accusing you of pride?

 

[Bluegoat]

I hope I am understanding your question.

As far as I knoww, the Catholic Church considers itself AND the Orthodox Church to be part of the One True Church, but in schism. They coonsider that the Orthodox have true beliefs, which are not heretical, although perhaps not fully developed. They posess real priests, and all the Sacraments, so they are a “real” Church.

THey understand them, however, to be in schism within the Church, because they are not in communion with the Pope.

I believe there are a few smaller groups they understand to be in the same position. This is different than how they understand Protestants, who they say do not have valid orders or sacraments, and who they understand to have heretical beliefs.

From the Orthodox viewpoint, Orthodoxy (all the Orthodox churches) comprises the visible Church. Catholics, Protestants, and everyone else are outside of it. Their orders and sacraments may or may not be “valid”. That applies to Protestants as well as Catholics. From their POV, they can’t have unity with either group unless they embrace orthodox belief and come into communion with the Orthodox Church.

I’m not sure if that is what you are looking for, but I think I’ve given a fair explanation of how they understand themselves to be united, or not.

 

[MrPip]

So, yes, these are the thoughts and opinions of men. I can only begin to imagine how much God weeps over our pride, arrogance, obstinacy, and separation from each other and Him.:crying::crying:

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

So, yes, these are the thoughts and opinions of men. I can only begin to imagine how much God weeps over our pride, arrogance, obstinacy, and separation from each other and Him.:crying::crying:

We likewise ought to shed tears of repentance over our sins of pride and complacency which for so many centuries have kept our Churches from reaching full visible communion.

 

[Nine_Two]

Thanks for pointing that out. However, I was and am aware of the process that occurred over many years, ultimately leading to the split. I was using 1054 as a point in time for reference from which to start my query and the discussion. I’m well aware that saying that 1054 was the point in time at which everything that split the Church happened is a little like saying that everything is either black or white. Or something like that. It’s early and the coffee hasn’t reached my brain yet .

My response was more toward you asking what changed between 1053 and now.