Old and New

[ClemtheCatholic]

Hi,

Whenever I talk with others about my faith, it often leads into Sacred Scripture. And here, commonly enough, they start to ask why the Old Testament seems so utterly different from the New. Almost like one of them must be a load of rubbish formed from imagination…

I argue that the New is simply following on from the Old and all those sort of arguments… after all, Jesus said he came “no to abolish, but to fulfil” the law.

However, this isn’t really enough for me to go along with - and in all honesty, I don’t really know myself what the answers are to many questions that non-believers come up with.

So, if I give some sample questions:

**Why, up until the New Testament, does God show himself on a much more personal/visible level to a huge number of people when in the New Testament (and today) this doesn’t seem to happen (i.e. no Angel leading a great host of men…)?

Isn’t God completely different in His “law enforcement” when comparing the Old with the New Testament? Of course, God has His reasons - but it seems wrong to strike sinners down with no mercy/forgiveness (as it seems to happen in the OT)… this does NOT happen in the New Testament, nor, indeed, does it happen today. Why?

Were the hundreds of rituals and laws formed for the Jews (by God) there to make them a disciplinary nation, capable of developing into Christianity? This is the only reason I can think of.**

As I read the Bible, there seems to be many more things that seem almost contradictory. I want to be a soldier for Christ and have written in a blunt manner because I have such a yearning for knowledge - I am really looking for good advice, at a good length as well please!

So, if you know the answers (from a Catholic perspective) I’d love to hear them, and if you have any examples of common mistakes when comparing the Old and New - please do say!

Thanks so much! God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

 

[InJesusItrust]

God is both justice and mercy. If you really want to start doing some connection between the OT and NT, learn more about the Eucharist, which is the fulfillment of everything. The Eucharist is the lamb of Passover (The lamb’s blood that the Jews had to mark their doors with so that the angel of death passes over. What does baptism do?) and the todah (wine, bread and meat sacrifices given to the Lord in thanksgiving). Then there is the whole thing about sides (God took out Eve from Adam’s side, the door to salvation on Noah’s ark was on the side, from the side of Christ came Mother Church through blood and water). There the Old Testament Messianic prophecies, and in the psalms and proverbs you can see the love of God for the poor, the humble and the oppressed. Remember when God would spare a city if there were only 10 righteous?

These are just a few of the many, many, many layers there are.

Even now if you believe approved apparitions Mary warns of a coming chastisement if men do not repent. What were the prophets saying to Israel? Jesus Himself said that if people do not repent they will perish.

There is both mercy and justice. God is the same then, now and forever.

 

[JRKH]

Hi,

Whenever I talk with others about my faith, it often leads into Sacred Scripture. And here, commonly enough, they start to ask why the Old Testament seems so utterly different from the New. Almost like one of them must be a load of rubbish formed from imagination…

I argue that the New is simply following on from the Old and all those sort of arguments… after all, Jesus said he came “no to abolish, but to fulfil” the law.

However, this isn’t really enough for me to go along with - and in all honesty, I don’t really know myself what the answers are to many questions that non-believers come up with.

this is not at all uncommon. Part of the problem stems from the way the bible is constructed and, co-incidentally to that, they way people try to use/read the bible.
The bible was never intended to be a “textbook”. and what it contains is not intended to be seen/used/applied equally throughout all time…It is a collection of works spread out over many hundreds of years and really shows a development…a maturing if you will of Man, God’s relationship to man, and man’s relationship to God.

So, if I give some sample questions:

**Why, up until the New Testament, does God show himself on a much more personal/visible level to a huge number of people when in the New Testament (and today) this doesn’t seem to happen (i.e. no Angel leading a great host of men…)?

Isn’t God completely different in His “law enforcement” when comparing the Old with the New Testament? Of course, God has His reasons - but it seems wrong to strike sinners down with no mercy/forgiveness (as it seems to happen in the OT)… this does NOT happen in the New Testament, nor, indeed, does it happen today. Why? **

Both of these things can simply represent that “growth” that I speak of above. Also…Much of what is written in the OT reflects man’s understanding of what God was doing…That is, God’s attempt to explain to immature man what was going on. Sort of like a parent might try to explain to a small child about lightening by saying it’s “Two clouds bumping together”. There is a germ of truth in the statement…but hardly a precise scientific explanation…

Were the hundreds of rituals and laws formed for the Jews (by God) there to make them a disciplinary nation, capable of developing into Christianity? This is the only reason I can think of.

I think that this is a good view…Another is the idea that immature children need rules…then as they grow older the “rules” are relaxed but the principles of the rules remain the same.

As I read the Bible, there seems to be many more things that seem almost contradictory. I want to be a soldier for Christ and have written in a blunt manner because I have such a yearning for knowledge - I am really looking for good advice, at a good length as well please!

So, if you know the answers (from a Catholic perspective) I’d love to hear them, and if you have any examples of common mistakes when comparing the Old and New - please do say!

Thanks so much! God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

Don’t try to resolve the OT with the new in too precise a manner…Start with the NT. Start with the Law of Love which is what everything else is built on (Mt 22:36-40) and the command that Jesus gave us to show we are His disciples. View the OT as “supporting Documents” for the NT. “The Law” has been fulfilled in the NT - the death and resurrection of our Lord and King. In this way the OT is always read through the lenses of the new.
That is how I handle it anyway…Besides…Living out our calling as Catholic should keep us busy enough without worrying too much about all the details of Scripture…Some are called to this type of study…I know I am not…

Peace
James

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

My sincere thanks to both of you, this really helps!

God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

 

[jcrichton]

Hi,

Whenever I talk with others about my faith, it often leads into Sacred Scripture. And here, commonly enough, they start to ask why the Old Testament seems so utterly different from the New. Almost like one of them must be a load of rubbish formed from imagination…

…this is true of most Believers–the Holy Spirit Calls us into Communion with the Word; conversely, non-Believers, though versed in Scriptures, tend to ridicule or dismiss most if not all of Scriptures–specially those passages that tend to comfound them the most (this latter part is also true for many Believers).

I argue that the New is simply following on from the Old and all those sort of arguments… after all, Jesus said he came “no to abolish, but to fulfil” the law.

However, this isn’t really enough for me to go along with - and in all honesty, I don’t really know myself what the answers are to many questions that non-believers come up with.

…there are two major differences between the Old and New Testaments: a) the Old Testament is both a book of worship for the people of God (Israel) and a book of prophecy for both Israel and Gentile worlds; b) the Old Testament is based in a direct temporal approach to worship hence the relationship between God and man is different from the New Testament which is forged on the New Covenant (God is Spirit and true worshipers must worship in Spirit and Truth): Christ/Jesus (Jesus = God Saves).

But we can witness from the Old Testament that there is a succession from the temporal existence (worshiping God) into the Spiritual existence (worshiping in God).

So, if I give some sample questions:

Why, up until the New Testament, does God show himself on a much more personal/visible level to a huge number of people when in the New Testament (and today) this doesn’t seem to happen (i.e. no Angel leading a great host of men…)?

…actually, even in the Old Testament the number of people who were in direct contact with a vision/rendering of God were few… and even these experiences began to dwindle as there was less and less need of them (ditto for the miracles performed both in the times of the Old and New Testaments)… to fully understand this we must visit St. Paul’s rendering of Faith found in Hebrews 11 (Faith: Hope and Trust in God’s Promise).

Isn’t God completely different in His “law enforcement” when comparing the Old with the New Testament? Of course, God has His reasons - but it seems wrong to strike sinners down with no mercy/forgiveness (as it seems to happen in the OT)… this does NOT happen in the New Testament, nor, indeed, does it happen today. Why?

Were the hundreds of rituals and laws formed for the Jews (by God) there to make them a disciplinary nation, capable of developing into Christianity? This is the only reason I can think of.

As I read the Bible, there seems to be many more things that seem almost contradictory. I want to be a soldier for Christ and have written in a blunt manner because I have such a yearning for knowledge - I am really looking for good advice, at a good length as well please!

So, if you know the answers (from a Catholic perspective) I’d love to hear them, and if you have any examples of common mistakes when comparing the Old and New - please do say!

Thanks so much! God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

 

[johnnyjones]

You can look at it this way. If you see contradictions between the OT and the NT, think how the Jews of Jesus’ time felt. They had a certain image and belief about how God operates but here was Jesus saying He was God and He didn’t seem to be the God of the OT.

Probably because many scribes and pharesies communicated to the 'average" Jew a poor understanding of God. Jesus had to crush so many misconceptions. He also gave a new understanding of God which is why we have a “new covenant”. Simply put the OT was an old covenant and the NT consisted of new revelations. Different God in the OT than the New? No, different covenant, therefore creating a different perception to the reader.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi,

Whenever I talk with others about my faith, it often leads into Sacred Scripture. And here, commonly enough, they start to ask why the Old Testament seems so utterly different from the New. Almost like one of them must be a load of rubbish formed from imagination…

…this is true of most Believers–the Holy Spirit Calls us into Communion with the Word; conversely, non-Believers, though versed in Scriptures, tend to ridicule or dismiss most if not all of Scriptures–specially those passages that tend to comfound them the most (this latter part is also true for many Believers).

I argue that the New is simply following on from the Old and all those sort of arguments… after all, Jesus said he came “no to abolish, but to fulfil” the law.

However, this isn’t really enough for me to go along with - and in all honesty, I don’t really know myself what the answers are to many questions that non-believers come up with.

…there are two major differences between the Old and New Testaments: a) the Old Testament is both a book of worship for the people of God (Israel) and a book of prophecy for both Israel and Gentile worlds; b) the Old Testament is based in a direct temporal approach to worship hence the relationship between God and man is different from the New Testament which is forged on the New Covenant (God is Spirit and true worshipers must worship in Spirit and Truth): Christ/Jesus (Jesus = God Saves).

But we can witness from the Old Testament that there is a succession from the temporal existence (worshiping God) into the Spiritual existence (worshiping in God).

So, if I give some sample questions:

Why, up until the New Testament, does God show himself on a much more personal/visible level to a huge number of people when in the New Testament (and today) this doesn’t seem to happen (i.e. no Angel leading a great host of men…)?

…actually, even in the Old Testament the number of people who were in direct contact with a vision/rendering of God were few… and even these experiences began to dwindle as there was less and less need of them (ditto for the miracles performed both in the times of the Old and New Testaments)… to fully understand this we must visit St. Paul’s rendering of Faith found in Hebrews 11 (Faith: Hope and Trust in God’s Promise).

Isn’t God completely different in His “law enforcement” when comparing the Old with the New Testament? Of course, God has His reasons - but it seems wrong to strike sinners down with no mercy/forgiveness (as it seems to happen in the OT)… this does NOT happen in the New Testament, nor, indeed, does it happen today. Why?

…aaaah… NOT! …for the most part the “sinners” had been practicing their art for years and years… God’s patience was rendered and acknowledged even by those who were eventually held accountable… (this of course has never changed); there are very specific events where, due to the Salvific Plan’s needs, God expedited correction (ie: Aaron son’s use of “strange” fire; the striking of the well-meaning fellow that touched the ark of the Covenant as it seemed to be falling down); yet, for the most part wickedness was allowed to run rampant (as is the case today)… furthermore, the Old Testament correction was not a lasting and final correction as Jesus had not elevated the form of worship into the Spiritual worship–hence His Preaching to those spirits who had remained in disbelief prior to His Incarnation, Passion, Death, and Resurrection.

Were the hundreds of rituals and laws formed for the Jews (by God) there to make them a disciplinary nation, capable of developing into Christianity? This is the only reason I can think of.

…well… yes and no… many of the Mosaic Laws were in place to keep Israel from becoming as the pagans around them… some were instituted for the sake of health issues… others were add-ons by well-meaning religious leaders who expanded on the originals–all (both Law and the Prophets) were meant to guide not only Israel but also the Gentiles to God’s Ultimate Goal: Christ!

As I read the Bible, there seems to be many more things that seem almost contradictory. I want to be a soldier for Christ and have written in a blunt manner because I have such a yearning for knowledge - I am really looking for good advice, at a good length as well please!

So, if you know the answers (from a Catholic perspective) I’d love to hear them, and if you have any examples of common mistakes when comparing the Old and New - please do say!

Thanks so much! God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

…this is great! Hunger for Christ (fellowship) is the Best! …you must pace yourself… dealing with both non-Believers’ views and personal limitations coupled with rawness of Scriptures and Church Teachings tend to become a seeming insurmountable task; you should make a list of the most important issues that you need answered; consult both the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well as your local parish resources and Catholic forums such as this one… organize your questions in relevance to particular themes and work just one or two into your study program… moving to the next topic/theme only as necessary (when the first is clear enough to you or when the next is directly relevant to the first)…

Good hunting!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

Hi again, thanks everybody for your previous comments!

I had another question: With the Egyptians, why so much killing and suffering enforced by God? Why was there the making Pharaoh stubborn? Did this need to happen for God’s “plan”?

This is probably the most common question of all for critics!

Thanks,
ClemtheCatholic

 

[mercytruth]

Hi,

Whenever I talk with others about my faith, it often leads into Sacred Scripture. And here, commonly enough, they start to ask why the Old Testament seems so utterly different from the New. Almost like one of them must be a load of rubbish formed from imagination…

I argue that the New is simply following on from the Old and all those sort of arguments… after all, Jesus said he came “no to abolish, but to fulfil” the law.

However, this isn’t really enough for me to go along with - and in all honesty, I don’t really know myself what the answers are to many questions that non-believers come up with.

So, if I give some sample questions:

**Why, up until the New Testament, does God show himself on a much more personal/visible level to a huge number of people when in the New Testament (and today) this doesn’t seem to happen (i.e. no Angel leading a great host of men…)?

Isn’t God completely different in His “law enforcement” when comparing the Old with the New Testament? Of course, God has His reasons - but it seems wrong to strike sinners down with no mercy/forgiveness (as it seems to happen in the OT)… this does NOT happen in the New Testament, nor, indeed, does it happen today. Why?

Were the hundreds of rituals and laws formed for the Jews (by God) there to make them a disciplinary nation, capable of developing into Christianity? This is the only reason I can think of.**

As I read the Bible, there seems to be many more things that seem almost contradictory. I want to be a soldier for Christ and have written in a blunt manner because I have such a yearning for knowledge - I am really looking for good advice, at a good length as well please!

So, if you know the answers (from a Catholic perspective) I’d love to hear them, and if you have any examples of common mistakes when comparing the Old and New - please do say!

Thanks so much! God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

Without the sacrificial suffering and death of our Lord Jesus Christ on behalf of us sinners, there would be no recourse for humanity, but for God’s justice. The proclivity for selfish behavior takes humanity down a spiral descent of degradation and violence as it happened in the generations leading up to Noah and the flood. Humanity had reached a point of no return.

God’s remedy was to set apart a people who would be sanctified by the Torah so as to bring forth the Messiah who would redeem the world from our slavery to the sins of idolatry, lust, selfishness, pride and violence.

We are in the age of God’s great mercy poured out through the suffering, death and resurrection of His beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. If we, and the world take this great mercy and grace of God for granted as we are now doing, there will be no remedy for the world, but for God’s justice.

In Judaism, they are now in the 10 days of awe, the ten days of repentance from Rosh HaShannah to the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur.

Maybe we all need to be in a state of repentance, of turning toward God and away from our own will and selfish desires.

just my thoughts

God bless

micah

 

[jcrichton]

Hi again, thanks everybody for your previous comments!

I had another question: With the Egyptians, why so much killing and suffering enforced by God? Why was there the making Pharaoh stubborn? Did this need to happen for God’s “plan”?

This is probably the most common question of all for critics!

Thanks,
ClemtheCatholic

…it stems from temporal world understanding… we (the bleeding hearts of the world) get caught up in the seeming unwarranted killings and suffering of the Old Testament sinful people at the hands of God (comparable to the animal rights activists whose credo is tantamount to ‘spare the animals kill the humans’) that the spiritual world is completely ignored or rejected… the Word, Christ, had not yet become Incarnate so the temporal values were the only ones in place as a matter of form (Salvific Plan in effect); those who died in ignorance of Christ, as God’s means for Universal Salvation, would in effect not die both a temporal and spiritual death (condemnation); rather, they would be visited by Christ, in the Spirit, at the Time of His Death-Resurrection:

17 And if it is the will of God that you should suffer, it is better to suffer for doing right than for doing wrong. 18 Christ himself died once and for all for sins, the upright for the sake of the guilty, to lead us to God. In the body he was put to death, in the spirit he was raised to life, 19 and, in the spirit, he went to preach to the spirits in prison. 20 They refused to believe long ago, while God patiently waited to receive them, in Noah’s time when the ark was being built. In it only a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water. 21 It is the baptism corresponding to this water which saves you now – not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has entered heaven and is at God’s right hand, with angels, ruling forces and powers subject to him. (1 St. Peter 3:17-22)

We cannot call God to account for His Way of doing things… still, our judgment is only partial if we concern ourselves with the temporal world while rejecting the Spirit–ultimately we would do ourselves a disfavor as we would tend to reject any responsibility for our behavior while demanding that God dispenses His Mercy without tempering it with Justice!

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

…it stems from temporal world understanding… we (the bleeding hearts of the world) get caught up in the seeming unwarranted killings and suffering of the Old Testament sinful people at the hands of God (comparable to the animal rights activists whose credo is tantamount to ‘spare the animals kill the humans’) that the spiritual world is completely ignored or rejected… the Word, Christ, had not yet become Incarnate so the temporal values were the only ones in place as a matter of form (Salvific Plan in effect); those who died in ignorance of Christ, as God’s means for Universal Salvation, would in effect not die both a temporal and spiritual death (condemnation); rather, they would be visited by Christ, in the Spirit, at the Time of His Death-Resurrection:

We cannot call God to account for His Way of doing things… still, our judgment is only partial if we concern ourselves with the temporal world while rejecting the Spirit–ultimately we would do ourselves a disfavor as we would tend to reject any responsibility for our behavior while demanding that God dispenses His Mercy without tempering it with Justice!

Thank you very much! It’s wonderful to see such charity on these forums