Old-Believers and Russian True-Orthodox view Greek Catholics

[Persis]

I think we all know they view of mainstream Orthodoxy in regards with Greek Catholicism, however I have a question:

What do the Old Believers (the ones with priests) think of Catholicism and Eastern Catholics in particular?

Also The Russian True-Orthodox Church, they are the remnant of the catacomb movement during soviet times and according to wikipedia in the mid 90s got episcopal lineage through the UAOC after their bishops died out, and whom they seemingly are moderately affiliated with.

Is anyone familiar with this small branch, and if so what do they think of us Catholics?

 

[bpbasilphx]

About twenty years ago there was an article in a Greek Old Calendarist periodical entitled, “The Tragedy of the Uniates.”

It said that the Eastern Catholics are the living embodiment of the old fairy tale of the child kidnapped in infancy, raised by a step-mother, and doesn’t realize who his true mother is.

Kyr Elias Zoghby said something similar, oddly enough.

 

[JohnVIII]

What do the Old Believers (the ones with priests) think of Catholicism and Eastern Catholics in particular?

I visited The Church of the Holy Nativity in Erie Pennsylvania in 1990. This old believers perish gets their priests (or did) from the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. My sense was that their views concerning outsiders are essentially the same as any other “conservative” part of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, that is, if they are not in communion with you than they do not believe that you have grace, or at least they will say they don’t know whether you have grace or not.

Also The Russian True-Orthodox Church, they are the remnant of the catacomb movement during soviet times and according to wikipedia in the mid 90s got episcopal lineage through the UAOC after their bishops died out, and whom they seemingly are moderately affiliated with.

Is anyone familiar with this small branch, and if so what do they think of us Catholics?

When the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia recently gave up its ecclesiastical independence from the Russian (Soviet) Church in Russia and submitted to the Soviet Church there were several small groups that objected to this union, both inside and outside of Russia. These small churches (one of which was The Russian True-Orthodox Church) don’t trust anyone, and usually are not in communion with anyone. I can assure you that they believe the Catholic Church has no grace whatsoever; however they would tell you that the same thing is true for the official church in Russia, which they would call it the Soviet Church, because they do not wish to call it the Russian Church. There is no such thing as the “Soviet Church”, so the main thing they imply by this is that the official church in Russia is not a church at all, it is schismatic and without grace.

But otherwise they are very friendly people!

 

[Aramis]

My experiences with Old Believers in Alaska is much the same…

They are friendly, outgoing, terminally polite, and refuse to accept that anyone outside their own communion is in any way, shape or form valid… even if they use the same liturgy and rubrics.

They are also under the “Tyranny of the Dead”… that is, nothing may be done that wasn’t done by their forefathers… although, unlike the Amish, they don’t shun technology, just technology interfering with faith or family. But it is the same kind of mentality. Even the youth are firm in their belief that they have the true faith, and that others have only fragments of truth.

When they see me pray before lunch, they do so as well. But they do not pray with me. They simply see my prayer as endorsement that it is okay to pray… and then when they catch me outside of class or the lunchroom, ask if I’m interested in becoming one of them. The lovely Rukhavi and saraphani are worn by many of the kids, even in the highly socially conscious high schools.

 

[Diak]

Persis, the news isn’t all bad. Two Old Ritualist priests joined the fledgling Russian Catholic Church, and at the Russian Catholic Sobor of 1917, Metropolitan Andrey allowed either the Old Rite or the New (Nikonian) to be used amongst the Russian Catholics, with no admixture of the two. Of these two priests, the first to come into Union (Fr. Evstachy Susalev) came after a personal discernment. Fr. Potapy Emilianov was the second, and most of his parish accompanied him into communion with Rome. His case is being advanced for beatification - the first Old Ritualist Greek Catholic to be considered for beatification.

There are some very attractive spiritual beauties about the Old Ritualists/Old Believers. I myself considered joining the community in Nikolaevsk many years ago while still single, but could not reconcile some things spiritually, especially in light of Vladimir Soloviev.

While no Greek Catholic priest currently offers the pre-Nikonian Russian Liturgy, it is still on the books as a fully approved liturgical usage according to the 1917 Sobor. There are a couple of priests and at probably a couple of deacons in the UGCC that would offer one if the interest were shown and a capable choir found, as the pre-Nikonian Liturgy relies primarily on Znamenny chant and a competent dyachok is needed.

Actually there are aspects of the Ukrainian Catholic liturgical practice that are relics of pre-Nikonian usage, as the Union happened before the reforms of Patriarch Nikon were thrusted on the Russian Church. And even some cultural traditions, such as the wearing of the sorochka (Ukrainian equivalent of the rubashka) and poyas (belt) are sometimes similar. Since both the Ukrainian Greek Catholics and the Old Ritualists suffered terribly under both Tsarist and Communist oppression, there are certain bonds of natural shared experience we have. The relations between the UGCC hierarchy and the Bela Krinitsa group in Bukovina are cordial.

Regarding the Old Calendarists, that is another matter entirely. Since they do not consider even most “canonical” Orthodox to be Orthodox, they consider all Catholics (Greek or Latin or other Easterns) to be heretics and that is that.

My understanding of the arrangement with the UAOC was not that there was necessarily any close relationship, but the “True Russian Orthodox” hierarchy wanted to establish/re-establish legitimate apostolic succesion (as the UAOC did itself with Metropolitan +Dionisy). The UAOC is very friendly with the UGCC, even to the point of having joint services outside of the Divine Liturgy such as Molebens, Akafysts and Panakhydas. Our priests and monks have even been asked to give spiritual talks to their clergy and vice versa.

 

[Diak]

I should also clarifiy that it is very difficult to speak in generalities about the Old Ritualists and Old Believers; there are significant differences between communities. Some do not even have an ordained priesthood anymore (bezpopovtsy).