Old Calendar - Julian Calendar

[chrisb]

What is the deal with the Old Calendar/Julian Calendar?

Pax, Salve, Shalom!

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

The Julian Calendar was invented by the Romans (I think under the reign of Julius Ceasar). It was a calendar that had 365 days a year, except every 4 years was a leap year which had 366 days.

Sounds famililar? It sounds like the calendar we use today, right? Wrong! We use the Gregorian Calendar. We don’t have a leap year every 4 years… well, we kind of do, but we really don’t.

If the year is divisible by 4 it may be a leap year; You see, if the year is divisible by 100, it must also be divisible by 400.

For example, the year 2000 was a leap year. But the year 1900 wasn’t. And neither will the year 2100 be a leap year. (But in the Julian Calendar, years like 1900 and 2100 will be leap years.)

This error was discovered In the 16th Century when they noticed that the Vernal Equinox (1st day of Spring) was 10 days later than it was back in the 4th century (which was when the Council of Nicea was held and determined a date formula for Easter). So Pope Gregory XIII authorised the use of the new calendar (hence the name, Gregorian Calendar). Basically, people went to bed on Thursday October 4th 1582, and woke up the next day on Friday October 15th 1582.

Eventually, other parts of the world would adapt the Gregorian Calendar. But the Orthodox won’t accept this new calendar.

Since the 16th Century, there have been 3 more erroneous leap years in the Julian Caledar (1700, 1800, and 1900). Hence now, the Julian Calendar is 13 days out of whack. That’s why some Orthodox Churches celebrate Christmas 13 days later than us. (After the year 2100, they’ll celebrate Christmas 14 days later than us.)

(The Easter date formula has other factors involved. I’m not sure if the Orthodox use the Julian Calendar to determine Easter.)

 

[chrisb]

Thank you Charlie!

As I understand it the Orthodox ‘do’ use the Julian Calendar to determine Easter and, in fact, they are currently ‘still’ in Great Lent right now! But my question for you is why does the Julian Calendar rightly align our Easter with the Jewish Passover?

 

[Mickey]

St Matthew 26: 1-5
“And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto His disciples, Ye know that after two days is the feast of the Passover, and the Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified. Then assembled together the chief, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest who was called Caiaphas. And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtlety, and kill him. But they said, “Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar among the people”.

 

[chrisb]

St Matthew 26: 1-5
“And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto His disciples, Ye know that after two days is the feast of the Passover, and the Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified. Then assembled together the chief, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest who was called Caiaphas. And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtlety, and kill him. But they said, “Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar among the people”.

I’m sorry but your subtlety in answering my inquiry escapes me.

Could you dumb it down for me?

 

[Hesychios]

The calculation of Pascha is a separate issue.

 

[chrisb]

The calculation of Pascha is a separate issue.

I’m not following…

I guess what I’m after is for someone to tie in why the Old Calendar calculates Easter with the Jewish Lunar Calendar? Are they ‘both’ wrong?

Also, I always hear modern Orthodox and even some Byzantine Catholic call Easter “Pascha” but when I am reading the Early Church Fathers ‘they’ seem to always use the label ‘Easter’… Is using the label ‘Pascha’ a means to re-unite our Lord’s Death and Resurrection with the Celebration of the Jewish Passover?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Also, I always hear modern Orthodox and even some Byzantine Catholic call Easter “Pascha” but when I am reading the Early Church Fathers ‘they’ seem to always use the label ‘Easter’… Is using the label ‘Pascha’ a means to re-unite our Lord’s Death and Resurrection with the Celebration of the Jewish Passover?

Generally when you are reading the Church Fathers you are probably reading a translation into English and most of those were done by British scholars who would tend to translate the Greek/Latin as “Easter” – a word that finds its origins in pagan tradition. Pascha was the more ancient term. Augustine uses this term frequently, although in general he references Passover as Pascha (a correct usage). However, he also points out that the word “pascha” means “transition” and he specifically uses it in reference to a passing from the old life to the new.

Deacon Ed

 

[Patchunky]

I’m not following…

I guess what I’m after is for someone to tie in why the Old Calendar calculates Easter with the Jewish Lunar Calendar? Are they ‘both’ wrong?

Also, I always hear modern Orthodox and even some Byzantine Catholic call Easter “Pascha” but when I am reading the Early Church Fathers ‘they’ seem to always use the label ‘Easter’… Is using the label ‘Pascha’ a means to re-unite our Lord’s Death and Resurrection with the Celebration of the Jewish Passover?

**FELTAMADT KRISTUZS!:extrahappy: **

I think it was the 1st Ecumenical Council that decreed that Easter would be the 1st Sunday following the 1st full moon of Spring, hence the reason for the early celebration in the West this year. The full moon was on March 21, the first day of Spring was March 20.

In the Orthodox church Paska cannot come before the Feast of Passover because the Lord’s Supper was a Passover Meal.

PASKA is derived from the Hebrew word PESACH which means PASSOVER and is how Jews refer to the Feast.

In the Matins of the Resurrection, one of the verses goes something like this " Blessed Passover, the Lord’s Passover, is the Passover from death to Life"

Hope this helps!

PS
after posting this, I found this site: orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/fasts_feasts/makarios_tillyrides_celebrate_easter.htm

Hope this helps…

mark

 

[chrisb]

**FELTAMADT KRISTUZS!:extrahappy: **

I think it was the 1st Ecumenical Council that decreed that Easter would be the 1st Sunday following the 1st full moon of Spring, hence the reason for the early celebration in the West this year. The full moon was on March 21, the first day of Spring was March 20.

In the Orthodox church Paska cannot come before the Feast of Passover because the Lord’s Supper was a Passover Meal.

PASKA is derived from the Hebrew word PESACH which means PASSOVER and is how Jews refer to the Feast.

In the Matins of the Resurrection, one of the verses goes something like this " Blessed Passover, the Lord’s Passover, is the Passover from death to Life"

Hope this helps!

Hope this helps…

mark

Interesting, considering the reasoning for fixing Easter as it was at Nicea.

From the synod we read,

It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom [the calculation] of the Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom, we may transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter, which we have observed from the time of the Saviour’s Passion to the present day [according to the day of the week]. We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and more convenient course (the order of the days of the week); and consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews, for it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without their direction we could not keep this feast. How can they be in the right, they who, after the death of the Saviour, have no longer been led by reason but by wild violence, as their delusion may urge them?

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.txt

When did the Orthodox change this to mandating it should be observed in line with Jewish observances of Passover?

 

[Mickey]

goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7050.asp

 

[chrisb]

goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7050.asp

With regard to the observance of our Easter Celebrations… which is ‘more’ important for us as Christians… to be accurate to the seasonal accurances from the time of Christ or faithful to calculations of our forefathers?

BTW, I know that this is a contentious topic in the East and if I approach it with a lack of sensitivity please let me ask your pardon now but I don’t desire to stir up any animosity.

 

[Mickey]

With regard to the observance of our Easter Celebrations… which is ‘more’ important for us as Christians… to be accurate to the seasonal accurances from the time of Christ or faithful to calculations of our forefathers?

BTW, I know that this is a contentious topic in the East and if I approach it with a lack of sensitivity please let me ask your pardon now but I don’t desire to stir up any animosity.

Yes. It is a topic that could be debated indefinitely, I suppose.

The full moon and the equinox are givens for East and West. But I appreciate the fact that the Orthodox Church waits until the Sunday after the Jewish Passover (I believe there are Eastern Catholic Churches that also observe the Julian calendar or the revised Julian calendar).

Blessings,
Mickey

 

[VL93]

Yes. It is a topic that could be debated indefinitely, I suppose.

The full moon and the equinox are givens for East and West. But I appreciate the fact that the Orthodox Church waits until the Sunday after the Jewish Passover (I believe there are Eastern Catholic Churches that also observe the Julian calendar or the revised Julian calendar).

Blessings,
Mickey

Yes, for example, St Elias (outside Toronto) is one Eastern Catholic Church that observes the Julian Calendar - and Pascha/Easter according to the “Orthodox” reckoning:

April 2008

 

[bpbasilphx]

I’ve been on Julian, Revised Julian, and full Gregorian.

It doesn’t matter to me at all any way.

Pascha is whenever the Church says it is.

 

[chrisb]

Yes. It is a topic that could be debated indefinitely, I suppose.

The full moon and the equinox are givens for East and West. But I appreciate the fact that the Orthodox Church waits until the Sunday after the Jewish Passover (I believe there are Eastern Catholic Churches that also observe the Julian calendar or the revised Julian calendar).

Blessings,
Mickey

Thank you for your generosity and kindness in sharing your knowledge on the subject.

With regards to using the Jewish Passover calculations to continue to determine our Lord’s Easter observances isn’t that 6 hours off for every year since it’s original inception? Also, doesn’t that intention fly in the face of the desires of our God-Bearing Fathers at Nicea?

How does this continue in the tradition of the Fathers?

It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom [the calculation] of the Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom, we may transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter, which we have observed from the time of the Saviour’s Passion to the present day [according to the day of the week]. We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and more convenient course (the order of the days of the week); and consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews, for it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without their direction we could not keep this feast. How can they be in the right, they who, after the death of the Saviour, have no longer been led by reason but by wild violence, as their delusion may urge them?

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.txt

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Yes. It is a topic that could be debated indefinitely, I suppose.

The full moon and the equinox are givens for East and West. But I appreciate the fact that the Orthodox Church waits until the Sunday after the Jewish Passover (I believe there are Eastern Catholic Churches that also observe the Julian calendar or the revised Julian calendar).

Blessings,
Mickey

Yes, there are - just as the Finnish Orthodox and some Estonian Orthodox use the western dating methodology, and have already celebrated Pascha…

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Thank you Charlie!

As I understand it the Orthodox ‘do’ use the Julian Calendar to determine Easter and, in fact, they are currently ‘still’ in Great Lent right now! But my question for you is why does the Julian Calendar rightly align our Easter with the Jewish Passover?

Hi Chris,

I couldn’t keep up with the posts that followed… I’ll just give you my thoughts in my words.

The early Catholics realised that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for Passover (see 1 Corinthians 5:7); He was crucified the day before Passover (Friday), laid to rest on the day of Passover (Saturday), and rose from the dead the next day (Sunday).

So, at the council of Nicea, the early Catholics agreed that Easter would be celebrated on the first Sunday after Passover. But when is Passover? Passover is the first full moon of Spring (Nisan 14th). But given the complexity of the solar and lunar cycles, it is hard to predict the first full moon of Spring.

The early Catholics thought that they could out-smart the Jews and come up with scientifiic calculations to predict the first full moon of Spring. But they were wrong; The first day of Spring was determined to be March 21st, which is not always right. And the full moon was predicted using Greek Metonic tables, which is not always right either. Nobody corrected these; Close enough was good enough.

(When at the council of Nicea, it was said that we would not celebrate with the Jews, it was not a prohibition to prevent the co-incidental concurrences of our feasts, but rather it just meant that we would not be dependant on the Jews to determine the date of Easter.)

But nearly 1,000 years later, a more significant problem would appear - the Julian Calendar was raising it’s ugly head. But at that time, the schism had already taken place. The Catholics and the rest of the world embraced the new Gregorian Calendar, but the Orthodox are still lugging away with the Julian Calendar.

So, in answer to you question; (I think) The Julian Calendar does not rightly align Easter with Passover.

(We Catholics use the Gregorian Calendar. Some Orthodox churches still use the Julian Calendar. We have different dates for Easter because March 21st falls on different days for us.)

 

[chrisb]

Grace and Peace Charlie,

Thanks for the info. My question, understanding that the Early Church Father at Nicea determined that it wasn’t going to be our goal as Christians to determine Easter from Jewish calculations do we find Orthodoxy clinging to a tradition (i.e. Old Calendar and Jewish Passover Calculations) as if this was the will of the Early Church Fathers? As I understand it, and please correct me if I am in error, the Jewish Passover calculations are off. The only reason the Julian Calendar lines up with it is because it is off as well. Is this correct? The question being do both traditions care more about being faithful to their ancient calculations (i.e. tradition) than they do to being accurate to the actual event in it’s seasonal cycle?

What about the “revised” Julian Calendar?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Hi Chris,

My thoughts is that changing the date calculations is a risk. How can we be sure everybody will follow the change? The last thing we need is more division.

We have the Catholics on one side, and we have the Orthodox on the other. So far, Protestants are following the Catholics, but who is to say that that will continue if the Catholics change?

For example, in Australia, we have a public holiday on Good Friday. Imagine if the Vatican changed the date of Easter, but the Australian Government didn’t; The logistics for a world wide change is mammoth.

What we need is for the whole world to come together is big group hug and decide a date for Easter. I would love to see our leaders do this.
:grouphug: