Old Catholic Church

[judethaddeus]

Hi,

I’m a new member. I had a question but wasn’t sure if this was the right forum.

I’ve read of the history and theology schismatic ‘Old Catholic’ Church. I’ve spoken and met some of their clergy. I daily pray they come back home to the true Catholic Church. But my question was, do they truly possess valid Orders and Sacraments as they claim? Has the Church published any official documents on the matter?

Michael

 

[RAR]

Hi Michael,

I’m sorry to say I don’t have an answer for you. I think you might want to try another forum, maybe Traditional Catholicism or Eastern Catholicism. If that doesn’t work, Apologetics or Ask an Apologist might be your best bet.

Good luck.
RAR

 

[bpbasilphx]

The term “Old Catholic” has a lot of use–even among groups that don’t hold to anything resembling the Christian faith.

Properly “Old Catholic” refers to the Union of Utrecht. Therefore the only real Old Catholic Church in the USA is the National Catholic Church, formerly called the Polish N. C. C., which is currently seeking reconciliation with Rome.

One reason they did so is that they withdrew from the Union of Utrecht when it began ordaining women.

So it cannot be said now that Old Catholics have valid orders.

 

[thecoach]

Hi,

I’m a new member. I had a question but wasn’t sure if this was the right forum.

I’ve read of the history and theology schismatic ‘Old Catholic’ Church. I’ve spoken and met some of their clergy. I daily pray they come back home to the true Catholic Church. But my question was, do they truly possess valid Orders and Sacraments as they claim? Has the Church published any official documents on the matter?

Michael

Yes they have true Apostolic succession, regardless of whatyou will hear here

 

[JRKH]

Hi,

I’m a new member. I had a question but wasn’t sure if this was the right forum.

I’ve read of the history and theology schismatic ‘Old Catholic’ Church. I’ve spoken and met some of their clergy. I daily pray they come back home to the true Catholic Church. But my question was, do they truly possess valid Orders and Sacraments as they claim? Has the Church published any official documents on the matter?

Michael

Could you provide any links etc that might allow the denizens here to see which group you are refering to?
If it is a schismatic Church then the answer is probably no they do not have valid Orders and Sacraments.

Peace
James

 

[Sepharad]

The “Old Catholics” should not be confused with the Traditionalist Catholics.

The “Old Catholics” left the RCC after Vatican I, due to the papal infallibility decree.

The Traditionalist Catholics (many of them) have a problem with Vatican II, not Vatican I. Many have not left the RCC, but some are regarded as being in schism.

 

[allhers]

There is some information about it on this site here:
newadvent.org/cathen/11235b.htm

 

[Peter_J]

Hi,

I’m a new member. I had a question but wasn’t sure if this was the right forum.

I’ve read of the history and theology schismatic ‘Old Catholic’ Church. I’ve spoken and met some of their clergy. I daily pray they come back home to the true Catholic Church. But my question was, do they truly possess valid Orders and Sacraments as they claim? Has the Church published any official documents on the matter?

Michael

The Old Catholics definitely did have valid orders (note that the [P]NCC traces their orders back to the Old Catholics). It’s possible to speculate that they may have lost them since.

 

[jesusluv]

Pope John Paul II and Joseph Ratzinger see them as valid orders.

oldcatholic.org/roman_church_views.htm

Dominus Iesus
At the Vatican on 16 June 2000, Pope John Paul II ratified and ordered the publication of Dominus Iesus. This Declaration of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was signed and published by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) in August of the same year.
In this Declaration, the Roman Catholic Church recognizes the validity of Orders and Sacraments of Old Catholic denominations:
“The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the [Roman] Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.”
“Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such … have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church.” IV. Unicity and Unity of the Church, 17

 

[Peter_J]

Pope John Paul II and Joseph Ratzinger see them as valid orders.

oldcatholic.org/roman_church_views.htm

Dominus Iesus
At the Vatican on 16 June 2000, Pope John Paul II ratified and ordered the publication of Dominus Iesus. This Declaration of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was signed and published by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) in August of the same year.
In this Declaration, the Roman Catholic Church recognizes the validity of Orders and Sacraments of Old Catholic denominations:
“The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the [Roman] Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.”
“Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such … have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church.” IV. Unicity and Unity of the Church, 17

That passage from Dominus Iesus doesn’t seem to me to be the best citation, since it doesn’t list which churches it is talking about. However (also from the website you mentioned):

Catholic Almanac - 1974

“The Roman Church recognizes the validity of Old Catholic Orders and other Sacraments.” (Felician A. Roy, OFM, p. 368)

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

At the worst, they are considered “valid, yet illicit”. The Old Catholics profess their theology, maintain valid Orders, and a valid Eucharist, therefore according to the same document Dominus Iesus, that would make them valid Catholics. According to Dominus Iesus any Christians who maintain valid Orders and a valid Eucharist are participants in salvation and the “fullness of grace and truth” entrusted to the Catholic Church.

But for a few disagreements, Old Catholics believe exactly as Roman Catholics. It’s unfair to characterize the Old Catholic movement for the very few groups that have accepted new age theology and wishy-washy ideas. Such groups are small and having changed the form, matter, and intent of their “ordinations” don’t have valid Orders, or a valid Eucharist.

I would have to look it up, but it was cited somewhere that Rome permits Roman Catholics who have no recourse to Roman Catholics priests to receive the Sacraments from an Anglican or Old Catholic priest.

 

[bpbasilphx]

** Catholic Almanac - 1974

“The Roman Church recognizes the validity of Old Catholic Orders and other Sacraments.” (Felician A. Roy, OFM, p. 368)**

**And in the 1990’s, the churches of the Old Catholic Union of Utrecht began to ordain women to the priesthood.

What does that do to their orders–or the apostolic succession of a bishop that would presume to do ordain a woman?**

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

Whose Orders are made invalid because a woman was ordained? And as for that matter, you’d have to accept the premise that women are excluded from the priesthood of Christ, that a Sacrament can be denied on the basis of sex - that a special Sacrament was created for males.

Anyhow, the ordination of women isn’t the issue. What is the issue is that Old Catholic Orders are recognized by Rome. That doesn’t mean Rome has “conceded” anything. Many Roman priests and Bishops are doing more outrageous things with the Eucharist and Sacraments, and certainly their Orders haven’t even been questioned by Rome.

You may despise us, and call us heretics, but let’s be objective about the Old Catholic Orders. Popes, Bishops, and priests have been heretics in the past.

 

[bpbasilphx]

And as for that matter, you’d have to accept the premise that women are excluded from the priesthood of Christ, that a Sacrament can be denied on the basis of sex - that a special Sacrament was created for males.

**Not every person can receive every Sacrament.

An unbaptized person can receive NONE of them except for Baptism.

Those below the age of puberty (as an absolute minimum) cannot receive the Sacrament of Marriage.

Nor, for that matter, can a same-sex couple.

Like all the Sacraments, the Sacrament of Orders was created for the CHURCH. Nobody, regardless of sex, has a right to be ordained. (And the argument “women have a right to be ordained” is the weakest I’ve heard.)

The function of the ordained ministry is ONLY for this world.

The acquisition of the Holy Spirit is for everyone, regardless of sex. It begins in this world and continues on through the next.

In Orthodox discipline, grave sacrilege on the part of a clergyman can be punished by absolute degradation from Holy Orders.

BTW, the Church condemned gnosticism centuries ago.**

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

The heresy of gnosticism (the one characterized by elitism, exlclusivism, secret salvific knowledge that condemned all others, claims to ownership over the spiritual), yes, was condemned by the Church, and, that is not the issue here. Nor are we discussing the Orthodox (schismatic, like the Old Catholics, no?) discipline. Please stick to the issue. The issue at hand is the validity of Old Catholic Orders.

I’m glad the argument “women have a right to be ordained” is the weakest you’ve heard, however, that is not my argument. My argument is that the ordination of women has not been denied by the Church, and of course, that’s an argument that’s going to take us to what makes something dogma, and Ultrajectine versus Ultramontane Catholicism. You and I will likely never agree. I will insist that the Church is infallible, you will insist that Pope is infallible, that he very well acts as the Church. Fine.

The “function” of the ordained ministry may be only for this world, that does not change that the Sacrament confers a character, and that such character is eternal, and that the eternal things must be open to all who are called, and that there are orthodox Catholic women who feel an honest calling from the Holy Spirit to the priesthood, a Sacrament conferred by God the Holy Spirit, and are being outright dismissed with no consideration having been made and no dialogue taking place, even despite some precedence in the early Church.

 

[Aramis]

Hi,

I’m a new member. I had a question but wasn’t sure if this was the right forum.

I’ve read of the history and theology schismatic ‘Old Catholic’ Church. I’ve spoken and met some of their clergy. I daily pray they come back home to the true Catholic Church. But my question was, do they truly possess valid Orders and Sacraments as they claim? Has the Church published any official documents on the matter?

Michael

The men ordained within the Utrecht Union have valid orders, and women ordained to the deaconate might*, but women are invalid matter for priestly and episcopal ordination, and apparently always have been.

Now, should they ordain female bishops (who are automatically invalid), anyone ordained by a female bishop lacks a valid ordination.

Many so-called old catholic groups are further removed… female priests, female bishops, some even abolished individual confession, sedevaticanism, and other heresies.

The PNCC/NCC left Utrech apparently over Female Priests. They have valid and licit orders, but are not in union with Rome at this time. They might come back, they might not; they may still hold issue with infallibility (which is listed as one of the major issues for the Utrecht Union…).

Old Catholics have failed to even hang on to the fundamental truths of the faith as a general rule. Some, founded without valid bishops, have no valid orders.

So, be wary of them. They are, as a rule, not safe to presume as valid. Treat them with compassion, and respect, but not as Catholic priests.

*Deaconesses were ordained by the early Church, all the way through about 700AD. We don’t know exactly how they related to the male deaconate, but we know they stood at the altar between the deacons and the subdeacons. Certain Orthodox churches have been ordaining Deaconesses recently: Greek Orthodox as clerics, Coptic Orthodox as minor orders.

 

[Peter_J]

The “Relations with other denominations” section of wikipedia’s PNCC page has a nice concise description of several interesting facts:

The PNCC is a longstanding member of the National Council of Churches and the World Council of Churches.

From 1907 until 2003 the PNCC was a member of the Old Catholic Union of Utrecht, and for much of that time was the only member church of the Union based outside Europe. However, in the 1970s this relationship grew strained, as there was a gradual shift towards liberalism in the rest of Utrecht Union churches, as opposed to a trend towards conservatism in the PNCC. [3] The PNCC in the United States and Canada entered into a state of “impaired communion” with the Utrecht Union in 1997, since the PNCC did not accept the validity of ordaining women to the priesthood, which most other Utrecht Union churches had been doing for the past several years. The PNCC continued to refuse full communion with those churches that ordained women; thus, in 2003 the International Old Catholic Bishops’ Conference expelled the PNCC from the Utrecht Union, determining that “full communion, as determined in the statute of the IBC, could not be restored and that therefore, as a consequence, the separation of our Churches follows.” (The following year the Old Catholic Church in Slovakia seceded from the Union over similar issues.) However, in 2004 the cathedral of the PNCC’s Canadian diocese ( St. John’s Cathedral, Toronto ) was reconciled with the Union and is once again in full communion with the Anglican Diocese of Toronto .

For some years the PNCC had inter-communion with the Episcopal Church in the United States, but in 1978 the PNCC terminated this relationship in response to the latter’s decision to ordain women to the priesthood.

Although the PNCC has entered into tentative negotiations with Orthodox Churches in North America, no union has resulted due to the PNCC’s substantial adherence to the Roman Catholic view of the sacraments and other issues.

Dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church led in 1996 to an arrangement of “limited inter-communion” between the two churches. [4] Subsequent dialogue has been affected by the PNCC reception of some former Roman Catholic clergy, and this was acknowledged in a 2006 joint statement between the two groups. Other obstacles to full communion cited in the 2006 statement include different views of the role of the Pope, and the level of involvement of the laity in church governance. [5]

A group of Catholics in Norway who split from the Lutheran state Church of Norway, who go by the name Nordic Catholic Church , are under the auspices of the Polish National Catholic Church, and according to some articles will have a bishop consecrated by the PNCC soon.

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

I recommend before jumping into Roman Catholicism you take a look at some of the other issues of the “false” Catholic Churches: look into the Old Catholics for yourself without bias, the Orthodox without bias, Roman Catholicism without bias, the Oriental Churches, etc.

Here’s a great article comparing Ultrajectine versus Ultramontane thought: orccna.org/ourfaith/meetultra.htm

 

[Peter_J]

I recommend before jumping into Roman Catholicism you take a look at some of the other issues of the “false” Catholic Churches: look into the Old Catholics for yourself without bias, the Orthodox without bias, Roman Catholicism without bias, the Oriental Churches, etc.

Here’s a great article comparing Ultrajectine versus Ultramontane thought: orccna.org/ourfaith/meetultra.htm

Thanks for providing that link, Jonathan. Although I don’t, of course, agree with everything in the article, it seems to me to be a very good exposition of your p.o.v.

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

Well, I don’t intend to convince everyone to accept my point of view, but I’ll keep praying for the day when we can all understand each other and Christendom will be united. I’ll also pray very hard for the day when Old Catholics are recognized by Roman Catholic laity (Dominus Iesus reflects an interesting perspective on behalf ot the Vatican structure) as Catholics, at least as much as the SSPX.

Anyhow, thank you for taking the time to read it. I know there will be many others who will not, and will attack with no consideration for what is actually being said.