Old Catholic Church

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Does anyone know anything about the Old Catholic Church? Are their sacraments Valid> Are the ordination of their priest legal? Can someone Old Catholic receive communion in the Roman Catholic Church?
 
Keeping in mind that I’m not Catholic, passing along what I’ve heard, I believe the position is that their sacraments are valid, their priests are real priests, but they cannot partake in Communion with Catholics.

If any knowledgable Catholic contradicts me, go with what they say. 🙂
 
ignatius777 said:
When exactly did this take place?
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Around the time of the First Vatican Council. As far as I know, the Old Catholics do have valid orders and sacraments. However, I think they are now ordaining women as priests and bishops, so it seems possible that one day their valid apostolic succession might become extinct. The Polish National Catholic Church used to be in communion with the Old Catholics but that ended over the issue of women’s ordination (the PNCC does not ordain women).

I do not believe the linked group, the Old Catholic Church of America, is actually part of the Union of Utrecht of Old Catholic Churches.* There are a lot of small, “Old Catholic” groups in the United States but I am not sure how many of them, if any, are actually recognized by the Union of Utrecht. As far as I know, with the break in communion with the PNCC, there are no American members of the Union of Utrecht.

*The Union of Utrecht is, as far as I know, the historical church body known as the Old Catholic Church
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
*The Union of Utrecht is, as far as I know, the historical church body known as the Old Catholic Church
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As near as I can tell, the Union of Utrecht preceded the Old Catholics.

Priests and laity, primarily from Germany, broke with Rome around the time of Vatican I. Papal infallibility was one of the issues. They called themselves “Old Catholics.”

Because they had no bishops, they couldn’t consecrate any new priests and so they were fated to eventual demise. To avoid this, they allied themselves with an 18th century Dutch schism, which had its origins in the Jansenist heresy.

Here is a bit on the Union of Utrecht, before it allied with the Old Catholics. I am quoting from the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1911, the article on Jansenism
The conflict lasted a long time, during which the episcopal functions were not fulfilled. In 1723 the Chapter of Utrecht i.e. a group of seven or eight priests who assumed this name and quality in order to put an end to a precarious and Painful situation, elected, on its own authority, as archbishop of the same city, one of its members, Cornelius Steenhoven, who then held the office of vicar-general. This election was not canonical, and was not approved by the pope. Steenhoven nevertheless had the audacity to get himself consecrated by Varlet, a former missionary bishop and coadjutor Bishop of Babylon, who was at that time suspended, interdicted, and excommunicated. He thus consummated the schism, interdicted likewise and excommunicated, he died in 1725. Those who had elected him transferred their support to Barchman Wuitiers, who had recourse to the same consecrator. The unhappy Varlet lived long enough to administer the episcopal unction to two successors of Barchman, van der Croon and Meindarts. The sole survivor of this sorry line, Meindarts, ran the risk of seeing his dignity become extinct with himself. To prevent this, the Dioceses of Haarlem (1742) and Deventer (1757) were created, and became suffragans of Utrecht. But Rome always refused to ratify these outrageously irregular acts, invariably replying to the notification of each election with a declaration of nullification and a sentence of excommunication against those elected and their adherents. Yet, in spite of everything, the schismatical community of Utrecht has prolonged its existence until modern times. At present it numbers about 6000 members in the three united dioceses. It would scarcely be noticed if it had not, in the last century, made itself heard by protesting against Pius IX’s re-establishment of the Catholic hierarchy in Holland (1853), by declaring itself against the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception (1854) and Papal Infallibility (1870), and lastly, after the Vatican Council, in allying itself with the “Old Catholics”, whose first so-called bishop it consecrated.
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newadvent.org/cathen/08285a.htm

Various and sundry Catholic denominations now claim to have apostolic succession via this schism because the Old Catholics splintered into multiple groups.
 
masuwerte said:
www.oldcatholic.org
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This history leaves out quite a bit.

Old Catholicism originated when various Catholic churches in Europe were separated from the Holy See in Rome due to political and economic factors. When they were able to again reunite, their first question was “who is the Holy Father”? The dogma of Papal authority had been proclaimed during the separation.

When they were able to again communicate, they were in good standing with the see of Rome, just lacking some valid lines of bishops. Initial separation from Rome occurred in The Netherlands in 1724 which formed the first Old Catholic Church. The churches of Germany, Austria, Czech Republic and Switzerland created the Union of Utrecht after Vatican I (1871) over the Dogma of Papal Infallibility. In the early 1900s the movement included England, Canada, Croatia, France, Denmark, Italy, North America, the Philippines, China, and Hungary. The Union of Utrecht has not welcomed any non-continental European community to join the Union with the exception of the Polish National Catholic Church.

I don’t know if the “Old Catholic” community you are asking about is part of the Utrecht succession or not, but these are nothing more than Protestants who continue to call themselves Catholic. They have continued to drop elements of the Apostolic faith the longer they are separated from the successor of Peter.

There is a local Utrecht succession here, which has absorbed the pedophile priests that were defrocked from the Roman communion. The sacraments are not considered valid.
 
I don’t know much about the Old Catholics…But they seem very much okay with the fact that they are not Roman Catholics. In addition, they seemed vehemently opposed to His Holiness, Blessed Pope Pius IX.

There is a fellow, I can’t recall his name, but he’s on youtube, and he is a (former) Old Catholic Priest (though in the last few months his Parish and himself have since converted to one of the Eastern Faiths).

Pius :knight1:
 
Dale_M said:
As near as I can tell, the Union of Utrecht preceded the Old Catholics.

Priests and laity, primarily from Germany, broke with Rome around the time of Vatican I. Papal infallibility was one of the issues. They called themselves “Old Catholics.”

Because they had no bishops, they couldn’t consecrate any new priests and so they were fated to eventual demise. To avoid this, they allied themselves with an 18th century Dutch schism, which had its origins in the Jansenist heresy.

Here is a bit on the Union of Utrecht, before it allied with the Old Catholics. I am quoting from the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1911, the article on Jansenism

newadvent.org/cathen/08285a.htm

Various and sundry Catholic denominations now claim to have apostolic succession via this schism because the Old Catholics splintered into multiple groups.
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I see. I’ve always found the Old Catholics a bit difficult to learn about. There is a lot on the web but much of it seems to come from the many small groups that form in the US.
 
guanophore said:
This history leaves out quite a bit.

Old Catholicism originated when various Catholic churches in Europe were separated from the Holy See in Rome due to political and economic factors. When they were able to again reunite, their first question was “who is the Holy Father”? The dogma of Papal authority had been proclaimed during the separation.

When they were able to again communicate, they were in good standing with the see of Rome, just lacking some valid lines of bishops. Initial separation from Rome occurred in The Netherlands in 1724 which formed the first Old Catholic Church. The churches of Germany, Austria, Czech Republic and Switzerland created the Union of Utrecht after Vatican I (1871) over the Dogma of Papal Infallibility. In the early 1900s the movement included England, Canada, Croatia, France, Denmark, Italy, North America, the Philippines, China, and Hungary. The Union of Utrecht has not welcomed any non-continental European community to join the Union with the exception of the Polish National Catholic Church.

I don’t know if the “Old Catholic” community you are asking about is part of the Utrecht succession or not, but these are nothing more than Protestants who continue to call themselves Catholic. They have continued to drop elements of the Apostolic faith the longer they are separated from the successor of Peter.

There is a local Utrecht succession here, which has absorbed the pedophile priests that were defrocked from the Roman communion.
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Interestingly enough, my son went to a service at 5:00 pm last Saturday in St. Paul. They congregation is tiny, he said there were about 6 people there. The priests can marry,and my son told me the pastor’s wife rang the bells. They are ecumenical, they do not deny any Christian communion, however, their services are in the normal Catholic manner. Since the congregation is so small, they meet in the Lutheran Church.

Here is their website, it tells the history and practices. One thing I thought was cute, they keep saying how friendly they are!

heartlandoldcatholic.org/faith.htm
 
the Old Catholic Church I am referring too, does claim to descend from the OC of Utrecht. www.oldcatholicapostolicchurch.org. I am assuming it is a gray area Catholic Church…

Can old Catholics receive Communion in the Roman Catholic Church since roman Catholics can in circumstances where they can not get to their priest receive the sacramernts? Maybe I am reading the cannon law incorrectly. I’d really like to know though.
 
LJFD1997 said:
the Old Catholic Church I am referring too, does claim to descend from the OC of Utrecht. www.oldcatholicapostolicchurch.org. I am assuming it is a gray area Catholic Church…

Can old Catholics receive Communion in the Roman Catholic Church since roman Catholics can in circumstances where they can not get to their priest receive the sacramernts? Maybe I am reading the cannon law incorrectly. I’d really like to know though.
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AFAIK, the PNCC is the ONLY Old Catholic Church that the Catholic Church recognizes as having true and valid Sacraments. We do have a pastoral agreement with the PNCC regarding communion in extraordinary circumstances. Aside from the PNCC, the rest of the Old Catholis are really in the same boat as Protestants. I believe this happened in the 90’s when the rest of the Old Catholics (aside from the PNCC) formally became liberal on the Traditionl teaching on homosexuality and women priests.

Kudos to those who have accurately explained that the Old Catholic Church (as a Church) does NOT originate from rebellions against the First Vatican Council.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
It was always my understanding that the Old Catholic Church sprang from a protest against papal infallibility and Vatican I was the main cause of their walking away?
mardukm said:
AFAIK, the PNCC is the ONLY Old Catholic Church that the Catholic Church recognizes as having true and valid Sacraments. We do have a pastoral agreement with the PNCC regarding communion in extraordinary circumstances. Aside from the PNCC, the rest of the Old Catholis are really in the same boat as Protestants. I believe this happened in the 90’s when the rest of the Old Catholics (aside from the PNCC) formally became liberal on the Traditionl teaching on homosexuality and women priests.

Kudos to those who have accurately explained that the Old Catholic Church (as a Church) does NOT originate from rebellions against the First Vatican Council.

Blessings,
Marduk
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
It was always my understanding that the Old Catholic Church sprang from a protest against papal infallibility and Vatican I was the main cause of their walking away?
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I thought brother Guanophore explained it rather nicely in his post #10.

The Old Catholic Church as a Church did not originate from protests against Vatican 1. The Catholic and Orthodox definition of “Church” requires that it must have a bishop. But no Catholic bishops participated in any schism after Vatican 1.

What happened is that a group of laypersons and a few priests protested, and then JOINED the communion of an existing body known as the Union of Utrecht (which had existed many, many years before Vatican 1 was even a twinkling in the eye of a single bishop in the Catholic Church). Afterwards, they identified themselves as the “Old Catholic Church.”

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I always thought the Old Catholic Church had bishops that fled Catholicism and thus had valid apostolic succession although licit orders…?? :confused: but apparently they had to go to Utrecht to get their episcopacy as they did lack their own…interesting

It’s not a subject I delve much into. I have read about the Anglican co-consecrations with the PNCC and Utrecht church that re-infused apostolic succession into Anglicanism according to most Anglican apologists. Interesting to read about…
mardukm said:
I thought brother Guanophore explained it rather nicely in his post #10.

The Old Catholic Church as a Church did not originate from protests against Vatican 1. The Catholic and Orthodox definition of “Church” requires that it must have a bishop. But no Catholic bishops participated in any schism after Vatican 1.

What happened is that a group of laypersons and a few priests protested, and then JOINED the communion of an existing body known as the Union of Utrecht (which had existed many, many years before Vatican 1 was even a twinkling in the eye of a single bishop in the Catholic Church). Afterwards, they identified themselves as the “Old Catholic Church.”

Blessings,
Marduk
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