Old Catholicism on the Immaculate conception?

[archangel04]

i was doing to reading on the Immaculate conception in Wiki (of all places) and saw this at the bottom:
“Old Catholicism
Old Catholics do not reject the Immaculate Conception of Mary, but Rome’s dogma regarding it, because Old Catholics reject Papal infallibility and do not believe the Pope can, by himself, define a dogma.[21] Some Old Catholic parishes venerate Mary as the Immaculate Conception and celebrate the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. Old Catholics hold that the faithful whose conscience does not bind them to belief in the Immaculate Conception, who do not believe it in good conscience, cannot be required to believe it because it has not been infallibly defined as dogma by the Church, the Pope having no authority to act in the capacity of the Church”. Did I miss something?
here is a link
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_conception

 

[derekohachey]

Old Catholicism heh? Sounds like the liberal version of the SSPX after Vatican 1.

 

[JRKH]

Old Catholicism heh? Sounds like the liberal version of the SSPX after Vatican 1.

Yes - I do believe there was a splinter group in Europe that was called “Old Catholicism”. This may be what is being refered to in the article.

Edit - Tha tis exactly what the article is refering to. It even has a link.

Peace
James

 

[Dempsey1919]

The “Old Catholics” left the Church after Vatican I because they disagreed with the definition of Papal Infallibility as defined by the Council. They left the protection of the Barque of Peter in the 1870’s and have steadily departed from the Apostolic Faith. The modern Old Catholic Church ordains women, approves of artificial birth control, and condones homosexuality. The Old Catholic Church more closely resembles the Anglican Church than it does the Catholic Church.

The Old Catholic Church cut itself off from the Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church; they no longer have the fullness of truth. Consequently, I would pay little attention to the fact that they reject the definition of the Immaculate Conception by the Catholic Church. Like all protestant sects, the Old Catholics lost the fullness of the Apostolic faith once they separated themselves from the Bishop of Rome.

 

[archangel04]

Thank you so much for this information. When I read “old catholic” I thought traditional? Thans again.

 

[Hesychios]

T… the Old Catholics lost the fullness of the Apostolic faith once they separated themselves from the Bishop of Rome.

One group of Old Catholics, the PNCC, is welcome to receive communion in the Latin Catholic church.

This in spite of the fact that they still specifically reject the Papal dogmas of 1870AD.

 

[Malleus_01]

Mal: Any Sect that rejects infallible DOGMA places itself outside of the Faith. Old Catholics reject Papal Infallibility. End of Story.

 

[Hesychios]

Mal: Any Sect that rejects infallible DOGMA places itself outside of the Faith. Old Catholics reject Papal Infallibility. End of Story.

I will not argue this point, it seems to be correct from the Latin Catholic point of view.

So perhaps you can help us understand … why are members of the PNCC (an Old Catholic church) welcome to commune in Roman Catholic parishes?

 

[Hesychios]

Old Catholicism heh? Sounds like the liberal version of the SSPX after Vatican 1.

It wasn’t liberal at the time.

It was actually the most conservative in it’s own day.

 

[Hesychios]

Mal: Any Sect that rejects infallible DOGMA places itself outside of the Faith. Old Catholics reject Papal Infallibility. End of Story.

I will not argue this point, it seems to be correct from the Latin Catholic point of view.

So perhaps you can help us understand … why are members of the PNCC (an Old Catholic church) welcome to commune in Roman Catholic parishes?

 

[Hesychios]

Mal: Any Sect that rejects infallible DOGMA places itself outside of the Faith. Old Catholics reject Papal Infallibility. End of Story.

I will not argue this point, it seems to be correct from the Latin Catholic point of view.

So perhaps you can help us understand … why are members of the PNCC (an Old Catholic church) welcome to commune in Roman Catholic parishes?

 

[StillWondering]

I will not argue this point, it seems to be correct from the Latin Catholic point of view.

So perhaps you can help us understand … why are members of the PNCC (an Old Catholic church) welcome to commune in Roman Catholic parishes?

Can you provide evidence that members of the PNCC are allowed to receive communion in a Catholic parish or a Catholic can receive in the PNCC? From what I understand PNCC seems to have kept their apostolic succession like the EO while not in full communion with the Catholic Church. While EO are allowed to receive communion in Catholic parishes even though there is an imperfect communion, could you show us evidence that PNCC can? Consider me not well informed, so I need some information spoon fed.

Note that because PNCC have apostolic succession (I guess this is due to how back in 1870, a few bishops were consecrated by the Utrech See which had apostolic succession independent form the Holy See from back in the Holy Roman Empire days), Catholics can receive the “last rites” in danger of death if no other Catholic minister is available. The hiarchy on who we should call is first, a Catholic priest with faculties, then a Catholic priest without faculties, then a non-Catholic minister with the proper ordination.

 

[Hesychios]

Can you provide evidence that members of the PNCC are allowed to receive communion in a Catholic parish or a Catholic can receive in the PNCC?

The following message or something similar appears in many Latin Catholic parish missalettes, as I recall. See if it appears in yours when you next attend.

**For our fellow Christians **
We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ’s prayer for us “that they may all be one” (Jn 17:21).

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 § 4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 § 3).

This is the canon.

844 §3 Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the eastern Churches not in full communion with the Catholic Church, if they spontaneously ask for them and are properly disposed. The same applies to members of other Churches which the Apostolic See judges to be in the same position as the aforesaid eastern Churches so far as the sacraments are concerned.

I need to emphasize that I am not contesting the statement by Malleus 01 here, he says that these people are outside the Faith because they reject the Papal dogmas.

In fact, the Decrees of Vatican I are quite clear about this:

 

[JW10631]

Members of the PNCC can receive Holy Communion in a Latin Catholic Church.

I read some of their beliefs/policies and they seem more Anglican than Catholic.

 

[peary]

i was doing to reading on the Immaculate conception in Wiki (of all places) and saw this at the bottom:
“Old Catholicism
Old Catholics do not reject the Immaculate Conception of Mary, but Rome’s dogma regarding it, because Old Catholics reject Papal infallibility and do not believe the Pope can, by himself, define a dogma.[21] Some Old Catholic parishes venerate Mary as the Immaculate Conception and celebrate the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. Old Catholics hold that the faithful whose conscience does not bind them to belief in the Immaculate Conception, who do not believe it in good conscience, cannot be required to believe it because it has not been infallibly defined as dogma by the Church, the Pope having no authority to act in the capacity of the Church”. Did I miss something?
here is a link
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_conception

But this just shows how misperception rules. The Pope’s infallibility is only on Faith and morals, and usually includes the bishops as well. The dogmas come from the root of the Church, meaning the people. THEY are the ones that keep a veneration alive throughout the centuries. THEY are the ones, through their bishops, who petition the Pope to declare and define a particular part of the Faith in the Church. The Marian dogmas are not so much about Mary as they are protecting the Truth about Christ. The Old Catholic church never got to that point in its understanding. It was a sentimental response to Vatican I, lacking in both thought and logic. It is of German origin, and more protestant in its thinking than anything else.