Old Catholics

[PJM]

There is a MAJOR difference here. The Old Catholics are not part of the Catholic Church, they are part of the Anglican communion. The SSPX are part of the Catholic Church. There is a huge difference between having some issues with some of the contents of a couple of documents from Vatican II but still remaining within the Church (the SSPX), and walking awa to separate yourself from the Church and now being part of the Anglican Communion (Old Catholics).

The situation of Old Catholics and the situation of the SSPX are not remotely comparable. The SSPX remain part of the Roman Catholic Church (they are our brothers and sisters within the Catholic Church), the Old Catholics have left the Church and are part of the Anglican Communion now.

Yes indeed.It is troubling that within our Church there somethimes seems to be a willingness to engage with Christians from non-Catholic denominations while at the same time those within our Church, such as the SSPX (who have some disagreements but remain Catholics) are treated as being almost ‘beyond the pale’.

THANKS very informative!

I’m unsure of your final comment however:shrug:

God Bless you

 

[commenter]

There is a MAJOR difference here. The Old Catholics are not part of the Catholic Church, they are part of the Anglican communion. The SSPX are part of the Catholic Church. There is a huge difference between having some issues with some of the contents of a couple of documents from Vatican II but still remaining within the Church (the SSPX), and walking awa to separate yourself from the Church and now being part of the Anglican Communion (Old Catholics).

The situation of Old Catholics and the situation of the SSPX are not remotely comparable. The SSPX remain part of the Roman Catholic Church (they are our brothers and sisters within the Catholic Church), the Old Catholics have left the Church and are part of the Anglican Communion now.

Yes indeed.It is troubling that within our Church there somethimes seems to be a willingness to engage with Christians from non-Catholic denominations while at the same time those within our Church, such as the SSPX (who have some disagreements but remain Catholics) are treated as being almost ‘beyond the pale’.

Old Catholics - churches and individual clergy and laity - are separate from the Catholic Church. They have their own denominations, their own dioceses, and ordinaries.

SSPX laity - part of the Catholic Church, do not belong to SSPX even if attend there

SSPX priests - as individuals, part of the Catholic Church, and belong to SSPX

SSPX o****rganization is not part of the Catholic Church structure; it reports to no ordinary or Vatican department; their priests technically under the local Catholic ordinary, but do not accept his authority over them.

I agree the SSPX is not, at present, comparable to the Old Catholics of 2016, around a much longer time. But the Old Catholic movement in the early decades also regarded itself as “the Catholic Church”, not a separate entity which it now obviously is. The formal split did not come all at once, just a trial and limited separation (“just a couple documents”), slowly hardening into a divorce.

 

[Picky_Picky]

It’s been said here a number of times that the Old Catholics are part of the Anglican Communion. A small, picky point given their closeness to the Anglicans, but they are not part of that Conmunion.

 

[GKC]

Aside from what has already been said, Old Catholic is also kind of an umbrella term for the various splinter groups that have their origin directly or indirectly in the Union of Utrecht. As noted, the “mainstream” Utrecht churches are very liberal and allow things like female ordination and gay marriage. Some other groups, such as the Old Roman Catholic Church, North American Old Roman Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic Church (they seem to be going by National Catholic Church now, at least in my town) are much more conservative, and could actually be said to be closer to Eastern Orthodoxy in theology, but still differ with Rome over some key issues.

The Utrecht churches are generally considered by Rome to have valid orders, but with the increase in female ordinations and inter-communion with various Anglican/Episcopalian groups, I would imagine that this will eventually change. I have not heard of any questions concerning the validity of those other groups I mentioned, and at least the orders of the PNCC are definitely still recognized.

The PNCC also had a joint communion agreement with the Episcopal Church, beginning in 1947. But this was broken in 1978, over the familiar female ordination issue.

 

[GKC]

It’s been said here a number of times that the Old Catholics are part of the Anglican Communion. A small, picky point given their closeness to the Anglicans, but they are not part of that Conmunion.

As I was about to say. In communion with the Anglican Communion, per the 1932 Agreement of Bonn, not in the Anglican Communion.

 

[commenter]

Yes indeed.It is troubling that within our Church there somethimes seems to be a willingness to engage with Christians from non-Catholic denominations while at the same time those within our Church, such as the SSPX (who have some disagreements but remain Catholics) are treated as being almost ‘beyond the pale’.

My local bishop does not have authority over PNCC priests, who with the laity are united under their own bishop ordinary, who my bishop does “engage”.

My bishop (theoretically) does have authority over the local SSPX priest, who recognizes my bishop as a bishop, but does not recognize him as his ordinary. So, no engagement.

 

[Peter_J]

Rather than posting my thoughts (I try to avoid getting into a lot of he said she said) I’ll just link to an article that may, or may not, be helpful.

 

[commenter]

Rather than posting my thoughts (I try to avoid getting into a lot of he said she said) I’ll just link to an article that may, or may not, be helpful.

Helpful.

 

[SyroMalankara]

As I was about to say. In communion with the Anglican Communion, per the 1932 Agreement of Bonn, not in the Anglican Communion.

Since both are more similar than dissimilar, why do you think they remain in separate circles, as opposed to becoming one denomination? Isn’t the current set up a duplication of resources?

 

[GKC]

Helpful.

Dr. Tighe is a good source.

So is the book by Fr. C.B. Moss that he included in his reading list.

 

[GKC]

Since both are more similar than dissimilar, why do you think they remain in separate circles, as opposed to becoming one denomination? Isn’t the current set up a duplication of resources?

No opinion on that. They have differing histories.