Old Covenant still in effect for Chosen People?

[Aurelio]

Howdy!

Say, one of our senior diocesan staff members asked us this as a class the other day as sort of “over the weekend” homework.

For me, it is indeed confusing at times.

Thus MY question:

Since the Jewish People are indeed the Chosen People, does this – or does this not – mean that for them and for them alone, acceptance of the New Convenant of Jesus Christ and His Holy Catholic Church is – or is NOT - normally required for each Jewsih persons own eternal salvation?

I’m sort of myself, as it LOOKS to me like tha in the last 10 to 15 years or so, so-called “consensus theology” has been holding to the idea, that for the Chosen People, the Old Covenant still holds just as it always has.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut!

Aurelio

 

[gelsbern]

I am trying to figure out how to properly answer this without confusing you or myself in the process.

Jesus is the tree of life. Under the old covenant, only the Jewish people were part of that tree. “The chosen people”, with our Lord’s death and resurrection, there is a new covenant, which we, the non jewish people, were grafted into the tree of life.

We read in Romans 11:13-31

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry
14 in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them.
15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 If the firstfruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you.
19 Indeed you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either.
22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24** For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree.**
25 I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in,
26 and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob;
27 and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.
29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
30 Just as you once disobeyed God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so they have now disobeyed in order that, by virtue of the mercy shown to you, they too may (now) receive mercy.

This means that we all became part of the chosen people when we become Christian.

I Peter 2:9-10

9 But you are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may announce the praises" of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
10 Once you were “no people” but now you are God’s people; you “had not received mercy” but now you have received mercy.

In answer to your question through the revlation of scripture and tradition, we have been told that Jesus is the Way to the Father however the jewish people who cling to the old covenant MAY POSSIBLY, find salvation, because we do not and cannot know the mind of God. Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) alludes to this in Dominus Iesus. But the Old Covenant has been fulfilled already when God sent the Messiah. Therefore, the old covenant no longer exists.

It would be akin to a contract that agreed to send you a check for 1 million dollars, but when you got the check, you didn’t believe it was the check you were contracted to get, and threw it away and kept waiting for your 1 million dollar check to arrive. There won’t be another check sent, because the check you are waiting for already came. So as far as the company you had the contract with, that contract has now been fulfilled.

Christians are indeed part of the God’s Chosen people, and the Jewish people cannot and do not hold sole claim to that title. Whether they will find salvation, outside of the church, that is soley up to God Himself to decide.

I wish I were more eloquent in explaining this, and I pray that I haven’t confused you more.

 

[Aurelio]

Thanks a lot Reverend!

No, I wouldn’t say you’ve necessarily confused me, exactly. But yeah! I AM going to have to do just a whole lot of thinking, sitting at this terminal in the early morning hours between now and Thursday, with a fresh pot of coffee ready to hand each and every morning.

Thanks a whole bunch!

Aurelio

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

gelsbern:

I am trying to figure out how to properly answer this without confusing you or myself in the process.

Jesus is the tree of life. Under the old covenant, only the Jewish people were part of that tree. “The chosen people”, with our Lord’s death and resurrection, there is a new covenant, which we, the non jewish people, were grafted into the tree of life.

We read in Romans 11:13-31

This means that we all became part of the chosen people when we become Christian.

I Peter 2:9-10

In answer to your question through the revlation of scripture and tradition, we have been told that Jesus is the Way to the Father however the jewish people who cling to the old covenant MAY POSSIBLY, find salvation, because we do not and cannot know the mind of God. Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) alludes to this in Dominus Iesus. But the Old Covenant has been fulfilled already when God sent the Messiah. Therefore, the old covenant no longer exists.

It would be akin to a contract that agreed to send you a check for 1 million dollars, but when you got the check, you didn’t believe it was the check you were contracted to get, and threw it away and kept waiting for your 1 million dollar check to arrive. There won’t be another check sent, because the check you are waiting for already came. So as far as the company you had the contract with, that contract has now been fulfilled.

Christians are indeed part of the God’s Chosen people, and the Jewish people cannot and do not hold sole claim to that title. Whether they will find salvation, outside of the church, that is soley up to God Himself to decide.

I wish I were more eloquent in explaining this, and I pray that I haven’t confused you more.

Thinking about this seems to involve maintaining - having to maintain ? - two or three mutually contradictory positions:​

1. The promises of the Old Covenant are made good in the Church because the Church’s first members were those Jews who recognised Jesus as the Messiah
2. The OC is still in effect because all Israel has not yet recognised Jesus as the Messiah

It’s not clear how the Church can be “the Israel of God”, if the latter still exists outside the Church.

That the Gentiles are engrafted onto the stock of Israel as the vine of God makes perfectly good sense by itself - it’s not easy to reconcile with supersessionism, and that in turn is not easy to reconcile with the current ambiguity in Catholicism about supersessionism.

Maybe this is a feeling, problem, or doctrine in search of an adequate formulation. ##

 

[a_cermak]

If God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow, then the Old Covenant still stands with the Chosen people.

 

[gelsbern]

But now the “chosen people” title encompasses more than just the Jews.

 

[gelsbern]

Just another thing to add food for thought.

Jeremiah 31:31-32
The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they broke my covenant and I had to show myself their master, says the LORD.

 

[Jaypeeto3]

If by “Old Covenant” you mean the LAW of Moses, no, the Catholic church at the Council of Florence defined forever that the Law of Moses has ceased with the promulgation of the Gospel.

Jaypeeto3