Old Covenant

[Pax_et_Caritas]

What I said was that at one time, including the time of some of your quotes, practices were acceptable based on doctrine that are now considered wrong. if memory serves correct, the Spanish Inquisition was targeted primarily and Jewish converts. Since none of this occurred under Pope Pius XII, it is reasonable to say that at one thing had changed.

Wow. You actually think that a doctrines taught by the Church for 1958+ years - and even taught at the council of Flornece - wasre wrong? And that the contrary is now true? That is incredible, but not surprising.

and I’m afrain you have been reading too much anit-Catholic propaganda. The Inquisition, of Blessed Memory, was not directed against Jews. It was directed against Catholics who were suspect of heresy and accused of being false converts. Many of these false converts were Jewish Catholics. They were accused of being infiltrators, and therefore the Inquisition examined them.

Just as it is against the law in America for terrorists to infiltrate the country for the purpose of destroying it, so too was it against the law for “false converts” to infiltrate the Church.

But I’m sure you have more confidence in the goodness of the unbelieving Jews than you do in the Catholic Church’s Inquisition. Having read too much anti-Catholic propaganda, you probably consider the “false converts” to have been the good guys (the innocent victims) and the Catholic Church to have been the bad guy.

Let me guess: Did you get that impression from the same high ranking Churchmen who convinced you that “the Old Covenant was never revoked by God”, and that the Church was in error on that point for almost 2,000 years… before it was blessed with himself - “the great” - who corrected and apologized for all of those politically incorrect errors?

 

[SemperFidelis]

There are simply too many times in the Old Testament where teh covenant with Abraham and David are said to be everlasting.

The Covenants with Abraham and David are everlasting, as is the one with Noah. The one with Moses however was never in place to be everlasting. In fact it was broken by the Jews right after it was put in place (golden calf incident) and God revoked it and then later reestablished it. It was to be abolished when Jesus came. Don’t look at it like God rescinded his promise, look at in the way that the Jews of today weren’t faithful to the Covenant (if they were, then they would’ve become Christians). God keeps his promises only to those who keep their promises to him.

 

[pnewton]

Wow. You actually think that a doctrines taught by the Church for 1958+ years - and even taught at the council of Flornece - wasre wrong? And that the contrary is now true? That is incredible, but not surprising.

and I’m afrain you have been reading too much anit-Catholic propaganda. The Inquisition, of Blessed Memory, was not directed against Jews. It was directed against Catholics who were suspect of heresy and accused of being false converts. Many of these false converts were Jewish Catholics. They were accused of being infiltrators, and therefore the Inquisition examined them.

Just as it is against the law in America for terrorists to infiltrate the country for the purpose of destroying it, so too was it against the law for “false converts” to infiltrate the Church.

But I’m sure you have more confidence in the goodness of the unbelieving Jews than you do in the Catholic Church’s Inquisition. Having read too much anti-Catholic propaganda, you probably consider the “false converts” to have been the good guys (the innocent victims) and the Catholic Church to have been the bad guy.

Let me guess: Did you get that impression from the same high ranking Churchmen who convinced you that “the Old Covenant was never revoked by God”, and that the Church was in error on that point for almost 2,000 years… before it was blessed with himself - “the great” - who corrected and apologized for all of those politically incorrect errors?

Well, I guess you have proven the adage of what happens when one assumes. No, I do not read anit-Catholic propaganda. It was a Catholic source on the Inquistition and they said the same thing I said, which is the same thing you said. We are all saying the same thing. JEWISH CONVERTS. No I do not consider these guys to be the good guys and the Church to be the bad guys. No, I did not get my ideas from “churchmen” whatever that means. I got that idea straight from the prophets as the spoke for God. I am free to believe Catholic doctrine that is actually in the Church’s teaching on the Catechism. I seriously doubt everyone in the Church was unaware of the Council of Florence when they wrote it.

No that I have responded to your unwarranted misrepresentation, I will tell you what I do believe, although I admit that it is no more than opinion. I believe that God’s covenants that he says are everlasting indeed last forever. If he has going to completely nullify it because of their idolatry and sin, he would have done so long before. It is not like they did not give God ample reason. I do not believe that this covenant is salvific. Nor do I believe that the nation of Israel deserves preferential treatment. I just believe that God is not done with the Jewish people yet. I think some of the current controversy might be an effort to resolve the Christian doctrine on salvation with the promise of God to Israel.

One last thing I believe. I believe that if your representation of any of the popes, past or present are no more accurate than your representation of me, then it is not surprising you have a negative opinion of them.

 

[SemperFidelis]

pnewton, as for the Inquisition I recommend this book:

Why Apologize for the Spanish Inquisition?

loretopubs.com/index.php?target=products&product_id=36

Here’s the review for the book by Loreto Pubs:

“This is a very handy reference booklet for all Catholics zealous to defend our holy religion and the one true Church instituted by Jesus Christ. Co-authors, Father Duran, M.J., founder of Miles Jesu, and Father Vota, M.J., have done a great service in providing historical facts, many provided by Protestant writers, which amply vindicate the Catholic Church from all the calumnious lies commonly propagated by the unscrupulous as portraying the facts about the Spanish Inquisition. Astounding enough, in 1994 the British Broadcasting Company came out with an unbiased documentary entitled: The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition. The admissions, coming across the air waves of this apostate nation, astounded viewers, and the priests from Miles Jesu make good use of them in their monogram. Totally obliterated is the notion that thousands of innocent people were being cruelly tortured and killed by sadistic ecclesiastical inquisitors. Other anti-Catholic fabrications are confronted and buried with an abundance of documented information of which Catholics can be proud and bigots confounded. This monogram is an excellent reference source for Catholics (and open-minded Protestants) who want to know the truth about the Spanish Inquisition. The two priests from Miles Jesus who collected such invaluable information about this and other commonly accepted misrepresentations of Catholic history have done a great service in providing such finger-tip data with irrefutable rebuttals that will overturn the tables on propagandists of misinformation. That is, if we do our part as propagandists for truth.”

 

[pnewton]

God keeps his promises only to those who keep their promises to him.

So you view everything like a contract, not a covenant? God is allowed to break promises?

 

[SemperFidelis]

So you view everything like a contract, not a covenant? God is allowed to break promises?

Did God not break the Mosaic Covenant when the Jews worshiped the golden calf?

 

[pnewton]

Did God not break the Mosaic Covenant when the Jews worshiped the golden calf?

That is a good question. I do not really know. Obviously Moses and Aaron continued to lead the people. On the other hand, he was going to wipe 'em out and start with Moses. The answer would lie in how an unchanging God can “repent.”

 

[TNT]

The Covenants with Abraham and David are everlasting, as is the one with Noah. The one with Moses however was never in place to be everlasting. In fact it was broken by the Jews right after it was put in place (golden calf incident) and God revoked it and then later reestablished it. It was to be abolished when Jesus came. Don’t look at it like God rescinded his promise, look at in the way that the Jews of today weren’t faithful to the Covenant (if they were, then they would’ve become Christians). God keeps his promises only to those who keep their promises to him.

Jeremias xi.8-10
8 And they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear: but walked every one in the perverseness of his own wicked heart: and I brought upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do, but they did them not.A conspiracy is found among the men of Juda and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem. They have returned to the former iniquities of their fathers who refused to hear My words. Thus, they likewise have gone after strange gods, to serve them; the House of Israel and the House of Juda have made void My covenant which I made with their fathers.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Jeremias xi.8-10
8 And they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear: but walked every one in the perverseness of his own wicked heart: and I brought upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do, but they did them not.A conspiracy is found among the men of Juda and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem. They have returned to the former iniquities of their fathers who refused to hear My words. Thus, they likewise have gone after strange gods, to serve them; the House of Israel and the House of Juda have made void My covenant which I made with their fathers.

Another point which almost no one mentions is that the Old Covenant has not been practiced by the Jews for over 1900 years, so even if it was “never revoked by God” (which it was) it is not saving anyone since they no longer practice it.

In fact, the Jews couldn’t practice the Old Covenant if they wanted to. Not only did God destroy their Temple, but the lineage of Priest has long since disapeared. Without their priestly lineage, they don’t know who is of the tribe of Levi and who is not.

“Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda: Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: the covenant which they made void…” ( Jeremiah 31: 31-32).

“For the house of Israel, and the house of Juda have greatly transgressed against me, saith the Lord. They have denied the Lord, and said, it is not he” (Jeremiah. 11-12).

“My people did not hear My voice, and Israel harkened not to Me… They gave me gall for My food, and in My thirst they gave Me vinegar to drink… Let their eyes be darkened, and their back bend down always. Pour out Thy indignation upon them: let Thy wrathful anger take hold of them. Let their habitation be made desolate, and let there be no one to dwell in their tabernacles, because they have added to the grief of My wounds. Add Thou iniquity upon their iniquity; and let them not come into Thy justice. Let them be blotten out of the book of the Living, and with the Just let them not be written” (Psalms 80: 12;62:22-29).