Old Earth vs. Young Earth

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Since Jesus said, “Heaven and Earth will pass away but my words will never pass away.” You say historical subtleties of language make it lost. I believe for the most part that Father means Father and fire means fire. Very few words change over time. Otherwise, why write the Bible?

The Earth is young, but “deeper truths buried in Scripture” can come only from studying the authors and manners of writing not much from subtleties of changing language.
You are misquoting me. Different languages have different rules of semantics, and it’s often hard (or impossible) to convey the full sense of a text in another language. This is a widely accepted fact, and footnotes about such difficulties appear in even the most orthodox of Catholic Bibles.

You are also taking Jesus out of context. He was speaking of His commandments and teaching. Regardless, I did not say the texts were lost. I said the full depth of them were “lost upon” modern readers. The phrase “lost upon” means that something escapes comprehension, not that it has ceased to exist.

Anyway, now, to reiterate and expound upon what I said previously, as Schroeder (who is a Torah scholar) illustrates, the written form of the Hebrew language could be manipulated by adding certain accents or ornamentation to different characters. In this way, Genesis contains alot of subtext that cannot be placed into the narative in plain language. He gives clear examples of this in his book “Genesis and the Big Bang.”

In the ancient world, those Jews whose job it was to make copies of the Torah were trained to do so for years and years for exactly this reason, and they faced the consequence of death for altering the particular formation of a single letter, so important was it considered.

Nahmanides, a Torah scholar living in the 1200’s (700 years before the Big Bang Theory), in writing his commentary on Genesis interpolated the following from that sacred writing:

At the briefest instant following creation all the matter of the universe was concentrated in a very small place, no larger than a grain of mustard. The matter at this time was very thin, so intangible, that it did not have real substance. It did have, however, a potential to gain substance and form and to become tangible matter. From the initial concentration of this intangible substance in its minute location, the substance expanded, expanding the universe as it did so. As the expansion progressed, a change in the substance occurred. This initially thin noncorporeal substance took on the tangible aspects of matter as we know it. From this initial act of creation, from this etherieally thin pseudosubstance, everything that has existed, or will ever exist, was, is, and will be formed.

This is, in laymen’s terms, the Big Bang theory… written 700 years before the Big Bang theory.
The idea that the earth is 6,000 years old conflicts with a concordance of data which are the foundation for the fundamental theories of physics, geology, biology, astronomy, archeology, paleontology, meteorology, genetics, and cosmology. Every field of science that touches upon or implies something about the age of Earth and the universe indicates that the age is on the scale of billions of years, not thousands. In order to hold that the universe is 6,000 years old, you must assume that the entire project of science is fundamentally and completely flawed.

That is why Young-earth Creationism is not taken seriously.
The question of the age of the earth is actually incoherent, in that the answer is completely relative to the frame of reference, in terms of both time and space. This is a point that even people who understand the theory of relativity for some reason often don’t piece together. The theory of relativity proved that time does not flow in a uniform manner, being effected by gravity, velocity, and the size of the universe itself. The universe is only 15 billion years old from the frame of reference of modern day Earth.

For instance, let’s pretend you could take two perfectly synchronized clocks (which would never stop running) and place one at the beginning of time/the universe, and one here on modern day Earth and wait around here for about 133 days. At the end of the 133rd day, you retrieve both clocks. While the one here on earth would have registered the passing of 133 days, the one at the beginning of time would have registered only the passing of 1 second. As Dr. Schroeder explains:

What’s exciting about the last few years in cosmology is we now have quantified the data to know the relationship of the “view of time” from the beginning of stable matter, the threshold energy of protons and neutrons (their nucleosynthesis), relative to the “view of time” today. It’s not science fiction any longer. A dozen physics textbooks all bring the same number. The general relationship between nucleosynthesis, that time near the beginning at the threshold energy of protons and neutrons when matter formed, and time today is a million million. That’s a 1 with 12 zeros after it. So when a view from the beginning looking forward says “I’m sending you a pulse every second,” would we see a pulse every second? No. We’d see it every million million seconds. Because that’s the stretching effect of the expansion of the universe.

Thus we see that the question of the age of the universe is completely relative to the frame of reference from which it is measured. It just so happens that (and on this point both ancient Jewish and Christian Bible scholars agree) the semantic context of Genesis places it’s frame of reference at the beginning of time, looking forward. Dr. Schroeder’s entire theory rests upon that fact, and the science confirms it.
 
The reason we have the Sabbath is that God rested on the Seventh Day from His Six Days of Creation. You can read this yourself.

Everything I read indicates to me that the Six Days were six Earth days, not billions of years.
Do you believe that Moses just wrote a story that is not true?
 
The reason we have the Sabbath is that God rested on the Seventh Day from His Six Days of Creation. You can read this yourself.

Everything I read indicates to me that the Six Days were six Earth days, not billions of years.
Do you believe that Moses just wrote a story that is not true?
Please read my previous post carefully, and then reread (or read for the first time as I get the feeling you didn’t read it to begin with) the article I linked earlier. The entire point of the article is that the amount of time was both 6-24 hour periods and 15 billion years, because the passage of time changes with the expansion of the universe. There is no “absolute time.” The Days of Genesis are measured from a perspective at the beginning of time. I’ll repeat my example:

For instance, let’s pretend you could take two perfectly synchronized clocks (which would never stop running) and place one at the beginning of time/the universe, and one here on modern day Earth and wait around here for about 133 days. At the end of the 133rd day, you retrieve both clocks. While the one here on earth would have registered the passing of 133 days, the one at the beginning of time would have registered only the passing of 1 second.

In the same way, those first 14 billion years, as we see them, would only be 6 days in the early universe.
 
Prodigalson, while that’s certainly interesting I think you’re straining to interpret both modern cosmology and Nahmanides writings to try to make the Bible and earlier interpretations of it to match modern cosmology than it does. There are times when prescientific people come up with theories that seem to match modern science, but that doesn’t mean they knew what they were talking about.

There have been enough philosophers throughout history, with such widely varying theories that some of them are bound to match reality in some sense. Democritus as well as Lucretius theorized that all matter was composed of atom-like particles, for example. That doesn’t mean they had access to some sort of divine revelation.

I do note with encouragement, however, that even centuries ago, Biblical scholars figured that the Genesis account was not literal.
 
I think your explanation of two synchronized clocks not registering the same passage of time because they are on the other side of the universe is completely false. They would register the same time.
 
Please read my previous post carefully, and then reread (or read for the first time as I get the feeling you didn’t read it to begin with) the article I linked earlier. The entire point of the article is that the amount of time was both 6-24 hour periods and 15 billion years, because the passage of time changes with the expansion of the universe. There is no “absolute time.” The Days of Genesis are measured from a perspective at the beginning of time. I’ll repeat my example:

For instance, let’s pretend you could take two perfectly synchronized clocks (which would never stop running) and place one at the beginning of time/the universe, and one here on modern day Earth and wait around here for about 133 days. At the end of the 133rd day, you retrieve both clocks. While the one here on earth would have registered the passing of 133 days, the one at the beginning of time would have registered only the passing of 1 second.

In the same way, those first 14 billion years, as we see them, would only be 6 days in the early universe.
What do you mean by “the early universe”? Do you refer to the state of the universe that existed 14 billion years ago? Or are you referring to a certain area in spacetime? My understanding of modern cosmology is that all of space is expanding uniformly from no central point. Therefore it doesn’t really matter from where you sit, the place you sit has been around for 14 billion years. Either way, I don’t think there is a good interpretation to say that Earth is 7 days old.

I’m certainly no theoretical physicist, so I’m not going to make any claims that he’s necessarily wrong. However, this doesn’t really solve the problems of Water before Light and Plants before the Sun and Stars. I’m also nearly certain that his claim that 6 days in the early universe equates to 14 billion years as we see them is calculated dishonestly.
 
I think your explanation of two synchronized clocks not registering the same passage of time because they are on the other side of the universe is completely false. They would register the same time.
Welcome to General Relativity, where nothing makes sense and intuition is useless…

… but it is nonetheless observably true.
 
What do you mean by “the early universe”? Do you refer to the state of the universe that existed 14 billion years ago? Or are you referring to a certain area in spacetime? My understanding of modern cosmology is that all of space is expanding uniformly from no central point. Therefore it doesn’t really matter from where you sit, the place you sit has been around for 14 billion years. Either way, I don’t think there is a good interpretation to say that Earth is 7 days old.
God’s point of view is 7 days. For us, at the level of science we are, with the limitations that we have, no wonder looks different. It’s not a sin to wander through all sort of hypothesis about the creation details (but this affirmation doesn’t include any form o abusive thinking).
 

For as much as science knows now, I think not, but I can’t say in what way God choosed to create everything. Now, if you look backwards through this laws, it looks like 15 billions years, but you can’t know for sure. A scientist, from the very beginning excludes God intervention in natural law, thus he has to say 15 billions years in a scientific theory.
My personal opinion is that indeed there was a canopy of water isolating the earth from the rest of the universe. Also, fire was not possible on earth before Adam’s fall.
Exactly. Which is why all sensible people agree that the universe was created last Thursday. It just seems older.
 
The reason we have the Sabbath is that God rested on the Seventh Day from His Six Days of Creation. You can read this yourself.

Everything I read indicates to me that the Six Days were six Earth days, not billions of years.
Do you believe that Moses just wrote a story that is not true?
Moses and the Plagues, the Exodus aren’t supported by archeology, and secondary sources. They are generally thought of as Mythical in academic circles as well.
 
Prodigalson, while that’s certainly interesting I think you’re straining to interpret both modern cosmology and Nahmanides writings to try to make the Bible and earlier interpretations of it to match modern cosmology than it does. There are times when prescientific people come up with theories that seem to match modern science, but that doesn’t mean they knew what they were talking about.
Actually, I’m not straining to interpret anything. None of these ideas are mine. All of this comes from the research of Dr. Gerald Schroeder, who is both a world renowned physicist and a Torah scholar. His research is very rigorous and of much more depth than I can hope to convey (my few paltry examples are literally a needle in the haystack… among other things he cites are ancient Biblical commentaries that predict the common descent of all animals, including man. One commentary even suggests a precursor to modern man who was nearly identical in appearance and behavior, even building simple tools and practicing ritual burial. Of course, as you know, archaeologists have confirmed the existence of such a being: we call him Neanderthal man.)

Sticking to the point at hand, he also charts a comparison of the description of each day in Genesis and the six epochs of modern cosmology. The order of events is nigh identical, with each day’s “developments” fitting into their respective epoch. Again, the literal text of Genesis obscures this because of some of the figurative language used, as well as the inability of other languages to convey the Hebrew “ornamentation.” The details are filled in by ancient commentaries that explain the symbolic meaning of different words (the word “waters” in the first verses of Genesis 1, for example, did not refer to literal water, but the “substanceless substance” * of Nahmanides’ commentary) as well as extrapolate the extra information encoded in the Hebrew. I wish I could do Schroeder just here, but I simply can’t, due to limitations of both time and space, not to mention my limited recall.

Also, that particular passage of Nahmanides doesn’t “seem” to match modern science. It matches it exactly.
There have been enough philosophers throughout history, with such widely varying theories that some of them are bound to match reality in some sense. Democritus as well as Lucretius theorized that all matter was composed of atom-like particles, for example. That doesn’t mean they had access to some sort of divine revelation.
Atom like particles are a fairly intuitive deduction, seeing as we can already easily break things down into smaller pieces ourselves. Something like the Big Bang is completely counterintuitive. So counterintuitive that most scientists fought against it. Further, Nahmanides was not a philosopher, nor was he attempting to write philosophy when he penned that passage. He was writing an interpretation of Genesis based on the original Hebrew. It was a work of philology, not philosophy.*
 
I think your explanation of two synchronized clocks not registering the same passage of time because they are on the other side of the universe is completely false. They would register the same time.
Then you betray your ignorance of science. This experiment has already been performed here on Earth, using 2 different clocks in two different planes at two different altitudes flying at different speeds in different directions (altering the force of gravity and velocity for each.) The clocks registered different times. Numerous other experiments have verified the same thing. If you want to engage in scientific discussions, it would behoove you to at least be familiar with the findings of modern science.
 
Then you betray your ignorance of science. This experiment has already been performed here on Earth, using 2 different clocks in two different planes at two different altitudes flying at different speeds in different directions (altering the force of gravity and velocity for each.) The clocks registered different times. Numerous other experiments have verified the same thing. If you want to engage in scientific discussions, it would behoove you to at least be familiar with the findings of modern science.
If you use a GPS you are using something that is adjusting for relative time.

physicscentral.com/explore/writers/will.cfm
 
Moses and the Plagues, the Exodus aren’t supported by archeology, and secondary sources. They are generally thought of as Mythical in academic circles as well.
Please cite an academic reference that says the Exodus never happened.

Peace,
Ed
 
From your source:
"Egyptian record keepingIt is unlikely that the 603,550 adult males plus women and children mentioned in the Exodus story would have gone unremarked by contemporary Egyptian records. That’s easily 2 million people (assuming one man, one woman, 1.5 children, which is very conservative[11]). But no Egyptian account mentions them. Or the plagues, which would be similarly unlikely not to have been recorded. There is no evidence of any of this. Given the standard of Egyptian record keeping of the time, this is an absence that would require explanation.

Bible literalists claim that it did happen, but that the Egyptians destroyed all the records, for reasons unspecified. This is contrary to the normal archaeological practice of testing a theory against the evidence, rather than the evidence against the theory. "

There are proven attempt of destroying evidence of historical facts made by the egiptians!
How comes you literats don’t know anything about them?
 
What do you mean by “the early universe”? Do you refer to the state of the universe that existed 14 billion years ago? Or are you referring to a certain area in spacetime? My understanding of modern cosmology is that all of space is expanding uniformly from no central point. Therefore it doesn’t really matter from where you sit, the place you sit has been around for 14 billion years. Either way, I don’t think there is a good interpretation to say that Earth is 7 days old.

I’m certainly no theoretical physicist, so I’m not going to make any claims that he’s necessarily wrong. However, this doesn’t really solve the problems of Water before Light and Plants before the Sun and Stars. I’m also nearly certain that his claim that 6 days in the early universe equates to 14 billion years as we see them is calculated dishonestly.
By the early universe, I mean the universe right after the Big Bang; the very beginning of time and space.

As to your dilemmas, I already addressed the issue of the word “water” in the beginning of Genesis. The issue of plants vs. sun and stars is a complex one that I cannot explain adequately, I would have to refer you to Schroeder’s book “The Science of God” for an in-depth treatment of that topic. It has to do with the very earliest plant life, i.e. algae, emerging prior to the clearing of Earth’s atmosphere. It sounds like complete hooey when I say it, but he gives a much more cogent explanation with reference to both science and ancient Biblical commentary.

As to his calculation, I invite you to read (and reread if necessary) the article I linked previously. It took me a few reads to fully grasp what he was saying, but once you get it, you can check the math for yourself and it works out. The error I was making (and which I suspect from your phrasing you may be making, too) was to think about this measurement as being progressive in perspective. What I mean to say is that, just as we now measure past time from a fixed perspective looking back into the past, Genesis 1 (according to both ancient Jewish and Christian source) measures time from a fixed perspective looking forward from the beginning of the universe. To borrow Dr. Schroeder’s example, if someone were to stand at that point in time/space and send a signal to someone in the present every second, we would only receive a signal every 1,000,000,000,000 seconds. Coupled with the fact that “each time the universe doubles in size, the perception of time halves as we project that time back toward the beginning of the universe,” the calculations all add up.
 
No, it doesn’t. It vaguely matches parts of modern cosmology. It is by no means exact.
Not exact in the scientific sense, but if you wanted to give someone an accurate description of the Big Bang in simple laymen’s terms, this would be completely satisfactory.
 
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