Old Earth vs. Young Earth

[buffalo]

But you did not need to respond. So obviously this is important to you. Perhaps you think that those who believe in an old earth are somehow denying god?

I have no trouble admitting that this is an important subject to me. The level of mistrust for science by some religious people is very frustrating.

Science can be illuminated by light or by darkness. Take evo thinking research for example. The appendix was thought to be vestigial and removed routinely. Why because it old and leftover. Had they researched the appendix from a design perspective millions would still be in people’s body and they would be healthier. Take tonsils and how they minimize polio. Same deal. Is there distrust of science? Yes. and there should be considering the track record. In the end this tension makes scientists accountable to someone else other than ego and money and the paradigm.

 

[edwest2]

Ed, you know you’ve painted yourself into an indefensible corner when St. Augustine - Doctor of the Church and one of the most prolific writers of the Early Fathers, whose credentials regarding how to properly interpret Scripture are undeniable - disagrees with your position: St. Augustine - Commentary on Genesis

St. Augustine clearly tells us to interpret Scripture in line with our faith, and with some understanding of what the writer intended, which is done not casually but by properly instructed and properly disposed people.

Ed

 

[Monkey1976]

Right, an empirical solution that is observable, repeatable and predictable is not possible. Therefore, evolutionism is philosophy. Agreed?

EvolutionISM is indeed a philosophy, and a generally repugnant one in that its adherents tend to reject God. Evolution in and of itself is a model which describes how species change over time in response to environmental pressures. You asked an extremely complex question, one that experts in the field could spend their entire careers investigating without being able to come to a definitive general conclusion. Even if they did, who other than God would remember them in the vast span of years that it would take for us to evolve into an entirely new species? In small terms, though, we do have some predictions that are pretty universally accepted:

1. Our appendix will probably disappear
2. Our little toe will possibly disappear
3. Our cranial capacity will probably increase

Even changes like this will likely take hundreds of thousands of years. Heck, we still grow extra teeth for processing tough, poor-quality plant matter even when they no longer fit in our jaw, but there are some populations among whom wisdom teeth are almost unknown.

As an example of a prediction that actually testable, imagine a forest whose trees are light-colored. Moths with lighter coloring will be more prevalent, because they have an advantage - camouflage. Now, imagine that the coloring of the forest trees becomes darker - say, from pollution due to burning coal. Suddenly, the light-colored moths are at a distinct disadvantage. Natural selection tells us that moths with darker colors should become more prevalent. In fact, they did - The Peppered Moth. In fact, when pollution control laws resulted in the trees once again being lightly colored, the moth populations saw a resurgence of light-colored individuals.

 

[buffalo]

St. Augustine clearly tells us to interpret Scripture in line with our faith, and with some understanding of what the writer intended, which is done not casually but by properly instructed and properly disposed people.

Ed

Now that St Augie is thrown in the mix his idea of prime matter should be considered.

AUGUSTINE AND EVOLUTION - A STUDY IN THE SAINT’S DE GENESI AD LITTERAM AND DE TRINITATE BY HENRY WOODS, S. J. - Prime Matter Chapter IV

 

[edwest2]

But you did not need to respond. So obviously this is important to you. Perhaps you think that those who believe in an old earth are somehow denying god?

I have no trouble admitting that this is an important subject to me. The level of mistrust for science by some religious people is very frustrating.

Help me to understand why a “mistrust for science by some religious people is very frustrating.” I mean you sit down to lunch in a restaurant and a guy at the next table is telling someone sitting right across from him that he mistrusts science and he’s clearly religious - what’s the issue?

Ed

 

[buffalo]

EvolutionISM is indeed a philosophy, and a generally repugnant one in that its adherents tend to reject God. Evolution in and of itself is a model which describes how species change over time in response to environmental pressures. You asked an extremely complex question, one that experts in the field could spend their entire careers investigating without being able to come to a definitive general conclusion. Even if they did, who other than God would remember them in the vast span of years that it would take for us to evolve into an entirely new species? In small terms, though, we do have some predictions that are pretty universally accepted:

1. Our appendix will probably disappear
2. Our little toe will possibly disappear
3. Our cranial capacity will probably increase

Even changes like this will likely take hundreds of thousands of years. Heck, we still grow extra teeth for processing tough, poor-quality plant matter even when they no longer fit in our jaw, but there are some populations among whom wisdom teeth are almost unknown.

As an example of a prediction that actually testable, imagine a forest whose trees are light-colored. Moths with lighter coloring will be more prevalent, because they have an advantage - camouflage. Now, imagine that the coloring of the forest trees becomes darker - say, from pollution due to burning coal. Suddenly, the light-colored moths are at a distinct disadvantage. Natural selection tells us that moths with darker colors should become more prevalent. In fact, they did - The Peppered Moth. In fact, when pollution control laws resulted in the trees once again being lightly colored, the moth populations saw a resurgence of light-colored individuals.

What you are referring to is adaptation. And those moths return to the original as does the finches beak size.

 

[Monkey1976]

St. Augustine clearly tells us to interpret Scripture in line with our faith, and with some understanding of what the writer intended, which is done not casually but by properly instructed and properly disposed people.

Ed

St. Augustine argues against the literal interpretation of Genesis. Would you not consider him “properly instructed and properly disposed”? Venerable Pope Pius XII personally endorsed the Big Bang model, including the implications it has of a universe billions of years old. Would you not consider him to have been “properly instructed and properly disposed”?

 

[buffalo]

EvolutionISM is indeed a philosophy, and a generally repugnant one in that its adherents tend to reject God. Evolution in and of itself is a model which describes how species change over time in response to environmental pressures. You asked an extremely complex question, one that experts in the field could spend their entire careers investigating without being able to come to a definitive general conclusion. Even if they did, who other than God would remember them in the vast span of years that it would take for us to evolve into an entirely new species? In small terms, though, we do have some predictions that are pretty universally accepted:

1. Our appendix will probably disappear
2. Our little toe will possibly disappear
3. Our cranial capacity will probably increase

Even changes like this will likely take hundreds of thousands of years. Heck, we still grow extra teeth for processing tough, poor-quality plant matter even when they no longer fit in our jaw, but there are some populations among whom wisdom teeth are almost unknown.

As an example of a prediction that actually testable, imagine a forest whose trees are light-colored. Moths with lighter coloring will be more prevalent, because they have an advantage - camouflage. Now, imagine that the coloring of the forest trees becomes darker - say, from pollution due to burning coal. Suddenly, the light-colored moths are at a distinct disadvantage. Natural selection tells us that moths with darker colors should become more prevalent. In fact, they did - The Peppered Moth. In fact, when pollution control laws resulted in the trees once again being lightly colored, the moth populations saw a resurgence of light-colored individuals.

1. Why? - we now know it has several functions
2. Why? Cranial size is not an indicator of intelligence.

 

[Monkey1976]

What you are referring to is adaptation. And those moths return to the original as does the finches beak size.

That’s all evolution is - adaptations carried through generations. When I say that the moths changed color, I don’t mean that the individuals changed color, but that the dominant coloring of the population changed as those who were not adapted died out, leading to those with advantageous coloring breeding more prolifically. After that, it’s just a matter of Br. Mendel’s squares.

 

[Monkey1976]

1. Why? - we now know it has several functions

True, but how well do those functions balance against the risk of infection from the appendix itself, especially given our medical advances by which we could replicate its functions artificially?

1. Why? Cranial size is not an indicator of intelligence.

Storage capacity. As we live longer, we’ll need more “drive space” for memories.

 

[buffalo]

That’s all evolution is - adaptations carried through generations. When I say that the moths changed color, I don’t mean that the individuals changed color, but that the dominant coloring of the population changed as those who were not adapted died out, leading to those with advantageous coloring breeding more prolifically. After that, it’s just a matter of Br. Mendel’s squares.

You are not going to slip this through. Adaptations are not the same as speciation.

Actually as the pressure subsided the moths returned to their former color. What is happening is genes being turned on and off as required. That is not evolution, that is a complex designed system responding to changing (name removed by moderator)uts. There is no blind unguided chance here.

MEN HAVEN’T CHANGED IN 270,000 YEARS

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Evolution in and of itself is a model which describes how species change over time in response to environmental pressures . . . In small terms, though, we do have some predictions that are pretty universally accepted:

1. Our appendix will probably disappear
2. Our little toe will possibly disappear
3. Our cranial capacity will probably increase

. . .

not wanting to get embroiled in all this, I just thought I’d make two comments

One would be hard pressed to look at a Peacock and then to the ugly creatures that live in the dark and not think there is more to the flowering (I cannot bring myself to describe the process as “evolution”) of life on earth than simply environmental pressures.

What would ever make you think that “Our cranial capacity will probably increase”? I am worried about the converse.

 

[Monkey1976]

Jaime_loves:

hello my name is Jamie Marie rea which translates to goddess of love Mary my life is a little strange I feel that I’m surrounded by angels at all times and I am the true Savior. messiah Who is full filling the prophecies .I have been to the real Hades I hell on earth bOhmian Grove Known as jack london club in oakland california…where are man who says that he is Jesus christ named manual Jordan who has the signs of The crucifixion on his body claimed I performed the Resurrection IMC I shoot amount of paranormal phenomenon I feel that I am being terrorized by many demons including Lucifer Satan and devil I’m seeing my own miracles including knowledge without information because of memory I feel that I’ve been to the truE garden of Eden where the tree of life Riverview Drive and the tree of knowledge that burning brush located in California Santa Cruz Bonnie Doon beach which translates to creation of the sand I feel any better I can save Earth and mankind from: its own destruction. I also have seen my eyes turn fire With neon yellow ring around my pulp ill.heard a voice of air confirmed Another Person. I have seen Scott Numoto grow larger than me while he was speaking on it like Nosferatu I have seen another Grow Wings from his back shoulder blades three different sculpa . my picture Is a identical match to the Virgin Mary and Madonna visited the true Temple in Los Gatos Sacred Heart with Jesus died on the cross.I believe what the exericiSom Riteis the true book of life Or the letter of Exile deciphered by God.I am now speaking Latin In pErfect Dialect confirmed by arch Bishop Michael Crowe who calls himself Satan Saint Michael Augustine hIdes in shadows shape shifts.I have met the Archangel Raphael also known as Noah I know Saint Anthony Aka Bill Clinton eugene Brooks is it Saint Jean .I cannot hide from my destiny on my pass but I feel that I come to benefit of add people in our life on this earth I’m sorry about the few we are going to lose reddit benefits so many for theSe demons kill millions of people here on earth add in order to reach the next dimension after the founding years of peace they have to be punished and Learn from thier mistakes And create peacefree from sin before judgement after the thousand years of peace then the other entities will be released have an account for their sins so are you reach the ultimate heavenhi self sacrificed Or committed suicide just the prophecies for toldI was in a coma, three weeks brain dead and came back from the grave in Modesto
I do not care about riches of Fame or notary I am I how many individual and I feel better if I am to Messiah that my god is the universe the people in it I don’t want the world anymore pain and I want to take tHis world which is pPurgatory because the souls are reincarnated to do it over and over again and make it into having for asking where no one dies ever againI know there’s been a lot of false profits of this world But I want to prove it in science Character my house exPalNation of the Bible prophecies that i have fullfilled prime running to save my creation how to love I truly don’t care who I am or what I am I just want to chance to save all I know all the Eeven happening in this world and how close we are to the end I am willing to risk my life and I are leaving just to try and help I’m going to take a bath Harbor chachi as long as my something needs are being met and I can’t reach my ministry

Can we all at least agree that this poor individual is bats*** crazy?

 

[Monkey1976]

You are not going to slip this through. Adaptations are not the same as speciation.

Actually as the pressure subsided the moths returned to their former color. What is happening is genes being turned on and off as required. That is not evolution, that is a complex designed system responding to changing (name removed by moderator)uts. There is no blind unguided chance here.

Exactly - the chance isn’t blind. If God willed that this population of moths survive for whatever purpose yet unknown to us, then evolution simply tells us the mechanism - the allele for darker coloration was passed on more commonly when it was advantageous. When the forest returned to its lighter coloration, the allele for lighter coloration was passed on more commonly.

All I’m saying is that I see evolution as a tool God employs for His purposes, and that it apparently pleases Him to use it in such a way that we can understand it.

Regarding the article link you posted, I agree with everything there. Polygenism - the idea that we magically all evolved in exactly the same way from populations of H. erectus spread across the word - has been sliding into disrepute for years. The prevailing model right now is referred to as “Out of Africa”, whose timeline pretty well matches the clock on the Y chromosome. The “OoA” model also identifies the San people as the oldest modern human population - those closest to our chromosomal parents. Where do they live? In a part of the Kalahari noted for its red soil. What is one possible meaning of the name “Adam”? Man of the red earth.

 

[buffalo]

True, but how well do those functions balance against the risk of infection from the appendix itself, especially given our medical advances by which we could replicate its functions artificially?

Storage capacity. As we live longer, we’ll need more “drive space” for memories.

If you mean by the growing use of antibiotics? Perhaps what we are eating causes the appendix to flare because stool blocks the opening.

Hmmmm - they put 700 terabytes of information into a gram DNA.

 

[Hrvatski]

Angelic personality given responsibility for unleashing a plague. Also Luke 10:18. Jesus beheld Satan as lightning falling from heaven.

 

[Daniel_Lysinger]

Jamie - if you know Latin perfectly, how come you don’t have good English grammar?

Anyway, I was always taught that the earth was roughly 6,000 years old - but I would like to know some reasons why the earth would be older.

 

[buffalo]

Exactly - the chance isn’t blind. If God willed that this population of moths survive for whatever purpose yet unknown to us, then evolution simply tells us the mechanism - the allele for darker coloration was passed on more commonly when it was advantageous. When the forest returned to its lighter coloration, the allele for lighter coloration was passed on more commonly.

All I’m saying is that I see evolution as a tool God employs for His purposes, and that it apparently pleases Him to use it in such a way that we can understand it.

I like - God’s design as a tool He employs for His purposes. And by studying design (biomimicry) we can understand the world better.

We now know there are 500 or so conserved genes that life shares. From these 500 or so (immortal) genes just about any creature can be built by turning on and off switches. To me that looks like life is front loaded right from the get go.

 

[Gricken]

Help me to understand why a “mistrust for science by some religious people is very frustrating.” I mean you sit down to lunch in a restaurant and a guy at the next table is telling someone sitting right across from him that he mistrusts science and he’s clearly religious - what’s the issue?

Ed

Misinformation is the issue. He has no reason for mistrust other than belief in god. He treats the two as mutually exclusive by setting them in opposing camps. He demonstrates a lack of knowledge on something he’s claiming to understand.

I can easily ask the same of you. If you hear someone say they believe the earth is billions of years old and is clearly religious, why is this a problem?

 

[Gricken]

Did someone really just try and say that evolution and adaptation are different? I think somebody is confusing Evolution with Evolutionism.