Old form of Mass attracts new generation

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I suppose Vatican II’s call for Latin, Gregorian chant, organ, etc. was just an opinion as well?

We have schools that teach that stuff. If your preference is not to take these classes and discuss with your German family, okay, but it doesn’t change the dynamics of the Church.

English or not, the Church will continue.
ProVobis, I did not and have never said on these forums that Latin, Gregorian chant, organ, etc. are “just opinions.”

Please stop putting words in my posts that aren’t there, and making me out to look like someone who does not submit to the Church. I resent that because it’s not true.

I have read the documents, and I know that the Church has written that Gregorian chant should have “pride of place” in the OF Mass, and that the organ is most suited to the liturgy, and that the people should know and hear regularly the basic Latin responses during the Masses.

I know that this isn’t just an “opinion”, it’s directive from Holy Mother Church.

What I’ve said over and over again on these forums and in real-life is that whether or not Latin, Gregorian chant, and organ are used in the OF Mass is up to the priest, as directed by the bishop. The laypeople can ask and point out what the documents say, but in the end, it’s not our call, it’s our priest’s call.

We need to respect his decisions and not hint around that he is giving us a “lesser” Mass or that he is doing something wrong by not including Latin, Gregorian chant, or organ. He has the authority to make these decisions for his own parish and Masses and we should respect our shepherds.

More often than not, his decisions about organ and Gregorian chant are made for him by the lack of people who can play the organ or do Gregorian chant.

As for Latin, I have no idea why priests do not include more of it in the Masses

The priests are our shepherds, not me, and they decide where the sheep should go and how to get them there. If they are doing something wrong, it the job of the bishop to correct them. It’s not the job of the laypeople. Again, we can ask, but we can’t tell the bishop what to do just because we’ve read some documents and believe we know as much as he does.

But once again, I ask you, please, not to accuse me of saying that Latin, organ, and Gregorian chant are “just opinions.” I do NOT believe that nor do I write it. Thank you.
 
What we need are standards, rigorously enforced. The current trend is towards ultimate democratisation: whatever the locals want is what you’ll see at Mass.
There is no democratisation (whatever that means). No one is voting. Rather the decisions on liturgy are made locally by the priest under the guidelines of the bishop. This is subsidiarity. Subsidiarity has always been the guiding principle of liturgy. All that stuff you said about then we can attend in peace, and worship, and adore, etc., that already exists for Catholics that want to do so.
 
I suppose Vatican II’s call for Latin, Gregorian chant, organ, etc. was just an opinion as well?

We have schools that teach that stuff. If your preference is not to take these classes …
It is not always a matter of preference to take this or that training. One also has to deal with health, priorities and ability. I would hope, that if there really is a resurgence of interest in the traditional heritage of the Church among young people that these same people will take their place of service by learning chant, Latin and organ, according to the ability of each. Cat and I aren’t getting any younger.
 
It is not always a matter of preference to take this or that training. One also has to deal with health, priorities and ability. I would hope, that if there really is a resurgence of interest in the traditional heritage of the Church among young people that these same people will take their place of service by learning chant, Latin and organ, according to the ability of each. Cat and I aren’t getting any younger.
I agree with you to a point. I couldn’t today for the life of me play the Bach organ pieces I learned much earlier when I aspired to be an organist. (Someone told me at the time I would have a better shot in a Protestant church.) I might still be playing it, however, if the organ had been better accepted all along in the church. Practice makes perfect, as they say, and that applies to chant or Latin as well. Or writing computer code for that matter.

To tell you the truth, it’s amazing to me that after so many years, I see or hear of priests who remember how to say the Old Mass or can read Cicero at all. But not enough apparently to make that strong of a comeback IMO. However, that’s not surprising, given the time away from it. Without that reason to practice and exercise, atrophy is sure to develop and that includes more than the bones. 🙂

Those who wanted to kill the Latin Mass certainly knew the best way they could do it. Take it out of circulation for a few years, take it out of training altogether, and their mission was accomplished.
 
It is not always a matter of preference to take this or that training. One also has to deal with health, priorities and ability. I would hope, that if there really is a resurgence of interest in the traditional heritage of the Church among young people that these same people will take their place of service by learning chant, Latin and organ, according to the ability of each. Cat and I aren’t getting any younger.
GOOD CALL!

According to the video in the OP, the Old Form of the Mass is attracting a new generation. I don’t see it in my city, but I’m sure it’s happening in other cities or else the OP would not have this video available to post.

But what I am definitely NOT seeing in ANY city is a rush of young people to learn how to play the organ (or piano, which is one pathway to learning the organ), and how to sing correctly so that they can learn to sing Gregorian chant.

I don’t think learning Latin is that important for those who wish to serve at the Latin Mass, since the translations are available.

However, without the organ and without the singing of Gregorian chant, that Latin Mass is going to be rather plain. Now that’s perfectly OK, and maybe that’s what the young people want–a Mass in Latin with no music at all. If that’s what you want, then stop reading this post. 🙂

But that’s not what I hear the young people saying here on CAF. What I hear them longing for is beautiful ethereal Gregorian chant and magnificent organ music, along with all the traditions and pageantry of the Traditional Latin Mass…

Again, I apologize in advance if I sound crabby, but after 56 years of life, I know from experience that music skills take work, hard work, and many hours of it, and like pnewton, I’m wondering if the young people expect the old people like me to do all that work.

Let’s start with the Gregorian chant. Singing Gregorian chant should be a skill that most people of normal intelligence can learn. But developing the kind of singing techniques that will actually make it sound lovely (or at least bearable) is not something that will be picked up off the internet. This is the kind of skill that you have to learn in choirs, from good music teachers, over many years. The voice, like any part of the human body, has to be trained.

From what I understand, the ideal in the Latin Mass is for the schola to consist of males, not females. And yet, in the United States a male who sings in a choir is even rarer than a teenager who is taking organ lessons.

Yes, male singers exist. We have a world-renowned boys’ choir in our city, and the boys can remain in the choir through high school, and some do. But it’s hardly a crowded choir.

And now let’s talk about all the children/teenagers who play piano or organ.

(Crickets chirping–hey, at least something is making music!)

Last year, I played for the concerts in our award-winning Catholic high school. This school attracts some of the most brilliant and promising students in the area, and the families are strong and in many cases, financially-comfortable if not wealthy.

And yet, out of the hundreds of students who attend that high school, not a ONE OF THEM was able to play for their school concerts, so they found a middle-aged lady (me) to do it.

When I was in high school, I not only played for all of my school concerts, but I was earning money playing for other soloists, ensembles, dance troupes, etc. in my city. I was better at playing piano in high school than I am now because I practiced more!

Hey, Latin Mass lovers, this isn’t looking good. 😦 No keyboardists = no organ= no Mass music other than acapella. But no boys/men singing in choirs (and not that many girls/women singing in choirs) = frog-like voices singing off pitch = no schola = no Gregorian chant = no Mass music at all.

Is this OK with you? A plain Mass? I personally wouldn’t mind, but is this really what you have in mind when you envision serving at a Latin Mass?

If it’s not OK with you, then here are my challenges to all the “New Generation” attracted to the “Old Mass”:
  1. Join a choir, one that has a well-educated and experienced conductor who teaches a difficult and varied repertoire of music, and trains the choir members in correct singing techniques. Don’t worry if it’s not a “schola” or even a Christian choir–the important thing is to learn HOW to sing so that eventually, you can attend some kind of training seminar to learn the proper way to sing Gregorian chant, and then hopefully, be able to teach others. And start young, when you are still a child, so you can grow that lovely singing voice.
  2. Take piano/organ lessons, and practice, practice, practice. It’s a lot harder than surfing the web and visiting Facebook, but someone has to step up and do it. YOU be that someone!. There really isn’t any excuse. If you don’t have the money, then ask an adult who shares your love of the Latin Mass to help pay for your lessons. You don’t have to have any talent to play an instrument–you just have to be willing to work really hard and not give up, but stick with it for at least ten years. That’s a good reason to start lessons when you are a child, but it’s never too late. I started organ lessons two years ago, and I’m able to play some very nice Bach pieces, and I’m getting better at playing hymns.
Godspeed to all the New Generation! I’ll be happy to let you take my seat at the piano (or organ) bench!
 
As for Latin, I have no idea why priests do not include more of it in the Masses.
No idea, really?

Isn’t this what you wrote earlier, effectively denouncing anything foreign? (Give us a break with the translations.)
The foreign language is also distracting to me. I can’t help but seek out the translation because without it, the words are gibberish. This “brain-work” of having to translate foreign phrases is an immense distraction to me. It’s not just Latin, it’s any language other than my own.
FWIW, I just did some math. (So what’s new, I know.) In the U.S. there are 73 million Catholics out of 350 million. Let’s see, if 17% of the population (50 million) is Hispanic and most of them are Catholic, it shouldn’t come as too much surprise when the number of Spanish Masses surpasses the number of English Masses, especially when many, if not most, of those attending English Masses are over 55 years of age. Thus my earlier comment, “You better get used to it.” I was referring to Masses in foreign languages.
 
If that’s what you want, then stop reading this post. 🙂
Cat, not to worry. I usually start seeing floaters after about the 4th or 5th paragraph and then move on to the next post after that. 😛
 
How does a discussion work? Discussion involves give and take, point and counterpoint, and yes, disagreements. Surely you did not expect to put up your OP, and then have everyone chime in and say, “Yes, wonderful! I agree.”
Whoa, slow down there. First off, my response was to maryjk, not you. The only reason you were brought up was that she brought you up. I’m all for open discussion and debate, when it relates to the topic at hand. My OP was a simple news thread, and I was not expecting another EF vs. OF thread, which it unfortunately seems like most threads on this forum devolve into.

I have noticed a group of individuals, not you necessarily, that try to put their two cents in on every thread about the EF to explain how much they dislike it. I’ve seen the same going the other way with people criticizing the OF on threads that were not intended to go that route. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of it and would hope people would point it out to me if I crossed that line.
 
No idea, really?

Isn’t this what you wrote earlier, effectively denouncing anything foreign? (Give us a break with the translations.)

FWIW, I just did some math. (So what’s new, I know.) In the U.S. there are 73 million Catholics out of 350 million. Let’s see, if 17% of the population (50 million) is Hispanic and most of them are Catholic, it shouldn’t come as too much surprise when the number of Spanish Masses surpasses the number of English Masses, especially when many, if not most, of those attending English Masses are over 55 years of age. Thus my earlier comment, “You better get used to it.” I was referring to Masses in foreign languages.
Yes, I get that you were talking about Spanish, Polish, etc., not Latin.

So do you think that the reason that priests don’t include Latin is because a lot of people are like me?

Do you think if they included Latin in the Masses, that we would change and “get it?”

At this point, I’ve been Catholic for 9 years, and I dislike Latin more than I did when I first converted. I have tried to get interested in it, honest. One reason I keep coming back to CAF traditional threads is to see if anyone can say anything that gives me a jolt and opens the door to getting it. So far, nothing. I’m happy for those who love it. But I’m not interested in it for myself.

If my parish began including more Latin in the Masses, I would seek a parish that didn’t use it.

If the Church required it in ALL Masses, I would submit. I would obey. I would be like the son in parable who complained, but did the work anyway. And I would trust that the Lord Jesus would be pleased with willingness to obey Him, even when He asks me to do something that I don’t want to do. Perhaps listening to Latin week after week in a Mass would help train me to overcome my unwillingness to face death (my dad died in February, and it was not a “blessed release” for him–he did not want to die).

So should the priests ignore people like me and include lots of Latin anyway? After all, a lot of young people are more open and malleable. Should the middle-aged and old who are stuck in their ways just be told, “If you don’t like it, leave us.”

I’m not just being a smart-aleck here, ProVobis. I’m guessing that these are issues that the priests wrestle with as they try to decide how to implement the directives from the Vatican. Losing the old and middle-aged means losing talent, experience, and monies (the young people certainly don’t have much of it).
 
Whoa, slow down there. First off, my response was to maryjk, not you. The only reason you were brought up was that she brought you up. I’m all for open discussion and debate, when it relates to the topic at hand. My OP was a simple news thread, and I was not expecting another EF vs. OF thread, which it unfortunately seems like most threads on this forum devolve into.

I have noticed a group of individuals, not you necessarily, that try to put their two cents in on every thread about the EF to explain how much they dislike it. I’ve seen the same going the other way with people criticizing the OF on threads that were not intended to go that route. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of it and would hope people would point it out to me if I crossed that line.
Yes.
 
Pretty much feeling the same way.

:banghead:

It shouldn’t be so hard to understand that I prefer Mass in the vernacular. In the language of the people. And in my case, that language is English.
See, to me this is the problem (not aiming this at you directly, but at the sentiment in general); we seem to care too much about what we prefer, when it’s not about what we prefer; it’s about what God prefers.

This sentiment (egalitarian in its nature) has pervaded the Churches across the West, and is perhaps the only conceivable explanation for the sterile catechesis and liturgical abuses so prevalent today. It seems we have thrown God overboard, and are now modeling our style of worship around what people prefer, what people can appreciate – when its not about that. The Mass in the vernacular appears to be at the very heart of this issue, as its very application is socio-cultural, (i.e. directed solely toward the “the people”). After the 60’s when these liturgical changes took place, many western churches seemed to had lost a great sense of the mystical. Our faith in the mysterious and spiritual aspect of our defining Catholic identity was diminished and instead we turned to the “reliability” of modern conventions applicable to the times and able to suit the dialect of the masses.

The irony is this; in an attempt at making the Mass appear less mysterious, it allowed it to become driven by peoples preference, and just like a spoiled child disregards its parents love, so to have many disregarded their faith.

Cardinal Ranjith explains the issue in brief.

The day the Church abandons her universal tongue [Latin] is the day before she returns to the catacombs.”. – Venerable Pope Pius XII
 
See, to me this is the problem (not aiming this at you directly, but at the sentiment in general); we seem to care too much about what we prefer, when it’s not about what we prefer; it’s about what God prefers.
And yet, here we are talking about the “Old form of Mass attracts new generation.”

Gee, it is what they prefer.

So it is okay if you prefer the EF, but since I prefer the OF, I have a problem. :rolleyes:
 
Should the middle-aged and old who are stuck in their ways just be told, “If you don’t like it, leave us.”
They shouldn’t be but sad to say, but that’s what life for everyone seemed to be like in the 60’s. It was particular hard for some of the immigrants who were forced into the English Mass. Now, of course, the Spanish, Polish, etc. Masses are much more available to them. They seem to be very appreciative as well, whereas it seems the Anglophones all want to monopolize the language of the liturgy and control it as well. Many of them are quite obnoxious in this respect. And I have to include my own nephew who wrote me from Germany telling me he doesn’t like the country because no one speaks English to him. (I told him to go to Poland, get some perogis and smile a bit.)
I’m guessing that these are issues that the priests wrestle with as they try to decide how to implement the directives from the Vatican. Losing the old and middle-aged means losing talent, experience, and monies (the young people certainly don’t have much of it).
That is a concern, for sure. It only seems yesterday that parishioners did more than hand in their envelopes. Plumbers, accountants, electricians, et al would donate their time to/in their local parishes and they didn’t do so much church shopping as they do today. People walked to church and parishes weren’t split into Spanish and English communities, where now they seldom see or deal with each other. This is not my idea of a universal church. People should get the same Mass, both in substance and in accidents at every parish. This is not possible when national languages are used for the entire worship.
 
And yet, here we are talking about the “Old form of Mass attracts new generation.”

Gee, it is what they prefer.

So it is okay if you prefer the EF, but since I prefer the OF, I have a problem. :rolleyes:
"The sane person always cares more for truth than consistency. If he sees two truths that seem to contradict each other, he accepts both truths and the contradiction along with them. His intellectual sight is stereoscopic, like his physical sight: he sees two different pictures at once and yet sees all the better for that."

– G. K. Chesterton
 
And yet, here we are talking about the “Old form of Mass attracts new generation.”

Gee, it is what they prefer.
Actually, this is mistaken.

To be attracted to something is not necessarily to prefer it; I’m oddly attracted to sin, but I don’t prefer it.
 
Actually, this is mistaken.

To be attracted to something is not necessarily to prefer it; I’m oddly attracted to sin, but I don’t prefer it.
Which makes no sense whatsoever.

It is okay that the “new generation” is attracted to the EF. (Much like, as you say, you are attracted to sin.)

But when I say I prefer the OF, well, now that’s a problem.

How about I say it this way.

I am NOT attracted to the EF. I am attracted to the OF.
 
See, to me this is the problem (not aiming this at you directly, but at the sentiment in general); we seem to care too much about what we prefer, when it’s not about what we prefer; it’s about what God prefers.

This sentiment (egalitarian in its nature) has pervaded the Churches across the West, and is perhaps the only conceivable explanation for the sterile catechesis and liturgical abuses so prevalent today. It seems we have thrown God overboard, and are now modeling** our style of worship **around what people prefer, what people can appreciate – when its not about that. The Mass in the vernacular appears to be at the very heart of this issue, as its very application is socio-cultural, (i.e. directed solely toward the “the people”). After the 60’s when these liturgical changes took place, many western churches seemed to had lost a great sense of the mystical. Our faith in the mysterious and spiritual aspect of our defining Catholic identity was diminished and instead we turned to the “reliability” of modern conventions applicable to the times and able to suit the dialect of the masses.

The irony is this; in an attempt at making the Mass appear less mysterious, it allowed it to become driven by peoples preference, and just like a spoiled child disregards its parents love, so to have many disregarded their faith.

Cardinal Ranjith explains the issue in brief.

The day the Church abandons her universal tongue [Latin] is the day before she returns to the catacombs.”. – Venerable Pope Pius XII
And how, pray tell, does one know “what God prefers” when it comes to “style of worship”?

.
 
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