Old form of Mass attracts new generation

[Rich_C]

As a follow-up to my previous post, Fr. Z’s opinion is usually well accepted by trads, so my words will have much less effect than his. Please listen to him and be prudent, as he asked.
Traditional, hard-identity Catholics, need to press forward and be prudent. Leave aside harsh polemics or comments about Vatican II. Stow them, at least for now. Be smart. There will be time in the future for people to sort what Vatican II means and what it doesn’t mean. But, mark my words, if you gripe about Vatican II right now, in this present environment, you could lose what you have attained.

Make some holy “lío”, as Francis would call it. Stir things up in your dioceses. But make it a* smart* and a positive ruckus.

On the other hand, traddies, conservatives, call them what you will – self-righteous debating about these imperfect labels is tedious and you know what I mean by them – seem to want to defend every wrinkle of turf they think they own. They don’t want anyone who doesn’t agree with them perfectly in the sandbox with them. They bite at those with whom they have far more in common than they have differences. That has got to stop now. The terrain is shifting quickly and we need a new approach lest we screw up and lose the good ground we have gained.
To those on the trad side of things, you are going to have to stop biting in such a nasty way at those with whom you mostly agree.

I was inspired by his post yesterday. The part you quoted made me think of CAF immediately. Fr. Z was talking to both sides that usually post here in the TC forum. We both ought to find more common ground.

Also, I have a feeling that we don’t know each other well enough in real life. Half my Catholic friends are very modern in a lot of ways but we don’t argue in real life. They came to my Latin Mass wedding. I went to their Novus Ordo wedding. We prayed the LOTH together and the only difference was when we sang the Salve Regina in Latin after compline I didn’t need to read along to remember it. I just put my '61 breviary in the corner and met them on their terms. It was nice.

Monday I was upset about the FFI issue and was not my best self. I for one will try to be better. In fact, after taking four months off from CAF this year, I wonder if letting the Internet be a big part of my faith life is just a mistake in the first place. I had much more peace during that time. There seems to be more room to sin than to be holy on Catholic forums.

 

[Sirach2]

Not to excuse bad traditional behavior, but if you have spent as much time with them as I have, you would know that there are reasons why they are the way they are. Unfortunately, I cannot cite those reasons here on CAF without incurring WWIII.

Further “mud slinging” and name-calling isn’t going to tame the lion. You will only make it more ferocious.

Genuine warmth and kindness will touch their hearts. Calling them “rad mad trads” won’t.

Do you think Fr. Z was mud-slinging, Lormar? Or is there much truth in what he said and advises? He has probably seen far more than you have experienced, since he is a priest in the thick of it, and his blog is heavy with comments. Prior to his blog, he was administrator of Catholics on Line for many years, so I think he has some words of wisdom formed from a great deal of ministry with trads.

As for the lion being tamed, sometimes kindness just doesn’t work. In AA, we call that being an “enabler” when we sit quietly and do nothing to tame it. Spouses who live with this addiction are often misguided with the ‘kindness’ approach, which more often calls for ‘tough love.’ **

 

[Sirach2]

I was inspired by his post yesterday. The part you quoted made me think of CAF immediately. Fr. Z was talking to both sides that usually post here in the TC forum. We both ought to find more common ground.

Monday I was upset about the FFI issue and was not my best self. I for one will try to be better. In fact, after taking four months off from CAF this year, I wonder if letting the Internet be a big part of my faith life is just a mistake in the first place. I had much more peace during that time. There seems to be more room to sin than to be holy on Catholic forums.

Spoken by a wise young man! I am far more peaceful when I refrain from CAF. I truly don’t know how our moderators are able to maintain a cool equilibrium after reading volumes of testy posts day after day, year after year. God bless them!!! What a service they give us!

Being a Fishie, Rich, you probably saw the post by Vox urging all of you to become increasingly involved in teaching, preaching, correcting, taking the bull by the horns. If it becomes more of the same …

As I noticed the title again, the key word is “attracts”!!!

 

[ProVobis]

I offer to you the Serenity Prayer, “Accept the things you cannot change, change the things you CAN, and the wisdom to know the difference.” Amen.

Okay, but it’s not like the Church hasn’t been overburdened before with the vulgar/vernacular and all its problems. It took a council 17 years spanning three Popes to set things straight in the 16th century. I imagine it took heavy public support to renounce the Reformers and later accept the council’s teachings. No, I can’t change things myself but I can always sow some seeds, for better or worse. In fact, we all can.

 

[Lormar]

Do you think Fr. Z was mud-slinging, Lormar? Or is there much truth in what he said and advises? He has probably seen far more than you have experienced, since he is a priest in the thick of it, and his blog is heavy with comments. Prior to his blog, he was administrator of Catholics on Line for many years, so I think he has some words of wisdom formed from a great deal of ministry with trads.

As for the lion being tamed, sometimes kindness just doesn’t work. In AA, we call that being an “enabler” when we sit quietly and do nothing to tame it. Spouses who live with this addiction are often misguided with the ‘kindness’ approach, which more often calls for ‘tough love.’ **

I wasn’t talking about Fr. Z in my post.

Sirach, you don’t know what makes traditionals tick; I do. If anyone thinks that treating them with anything other than kindness, when trying to show them where they are wrong, will get them back into the Church, you are mistaken. Unless, of course, the object is to keep them where they are - out of the Church’s hair, so to speak - then, of course, continue with the ridicule, but don’t feign shock when the lion attacks when he/she is provoked.

 

[Sirach2]

I wasn’t talking about Fr. Z in my post.

Sirach, you don’t know what makes traditionals tick; I do. If anyone thinks that treating them with anything other than kindness, when trying to show them where they are wrong, will get them back into the Church, you are mistaken. Unless, of course, the object is to keep them where they are - out of the Church’s hair, so to speak - then, of course, continue with the ridicule, but don’t feign shock when the lion attacks when he/she is provoked.

Truth be told, the lion attacks whether or not he/she is provoked.

Wanna spell it out real clear? What were you talking about? Sounds like sour grapes, but I hope you realize that the pendulum swings both ways. Wouldn’t your idea serve for them to treat those whom they disagree with in a like manner … i.e., kindness, and not hostility? I think that was the experience of Fr. Z, as well, admonishing them to stop biting them (and he even said stop “bitching”.)

 

[Rich_C]

Spoken by a wise young man! I am far more peaceful when I refrain from CAF. I truly don’t know how our moderators are able to maintain a cool equilibrium after reading volumes of testy posts day after day, year after year. God bless them!!! What a service they give us!

Being a Fishie, Rich, you probably saw the post by Vox urging all of you to become increasingly involved in teaching, preaching, correcting, taking the bull by the horns. If it becomes more of the same …

As I noticed the title again, the key word is “attracts”!!!

I don’t see most of her posts, but the last big one she posted was on a painting of a medieval wedding where peasants were dancing. She praised the peasants’ worldview and reminded people that we should let the Faith color our worldview, not let our worldview color the Faith for us. It was a great post.

 

[Lormar]

Truth be told, the lion attacks whether or not he/she is provoked.

Wanna spell it out real clear? What were you talking about? Sounds like sour grapes, but I hope you realize that the pendulum swings both ways. Wouldn’t your idea serve for them to treat those whom they disagree with in a like manner … i.e., kindness, and not hostility? I think that was the experience of Fr. Z, as well, admonishing them to stop biting them (and he even said stop “bitching”.)

Never mind Sirach.

 

[Sirach2]

I don’t see most of her posts, but the last big one she posted was on a painting of a medieval wedding where peasants were dancing. She praised the peasants’ worldview and reminded people that we should let the Faith color our worldview, not let our worldview color the Faith for us. It was a great post.

Teaching them, praying for them, and if that fails, ensuring that their voices aren’t seen as “the voice of Tradition” by any means is key. The sane trads have to write more, post more, talk more, teach more, and drown out, overwhelm, the nasty whining from the folks that truly fit the definition of “Mad Trad.”

She has a point. It is this type that ruins it and slams the door for the true traditionalist.

 

[Cat]

I think what would convince me that Latin is worth doing is if I could see with Christians that I actually know in real life (not online) that it makes a noticeable and significant difference in their lives and makes them holier, more faith-filled, more joyful, bolder and smarter witnesses among the non-believers, more charitable to all, and more deeply in love with their Lord Jesus Christ and their Church.

There’s a lot of persuasive power in simple goodness.

Does Latin in the Mass aid the Holy Spirit in producing fruit in believers? And can the growth of the fruit be attributed mainly to the use of Latin?

And no fair citing the saints! They had no choice but Latin.

I’m not trying to hide anything and I’m not being sarcastic in this post. I’m a skeptic. An obedient skeptic, but a skeptic nonetheless. I just can’t see any benefit whatsoever in using Latin in the OF Mass, other than doing it out of obedience to Holy Mother Church. But since Holy Mother Church has not pushed very hard for Latin in the OF Mass, I wonder just how important it really is.

 

[pnewton]

See, to me this is the problem (not aiming this at you directly, but at the sentiment in general); we seem to care too much about what we prefer, when it’s not about what we prefer; it’s about what God prefers.

God prefer a language he knows. As he is omniscient, this includes a lot of choices. I guess if we were to take a stab, maybe Aramaic. as that was his primary language on Earth?

It really is a silly discussion. Just a reading Philippians 2 will bring home the extent of God’s willingness to humble Himself for our salvation. In this respect, God prefers what it best for us. So our “preference” in this sense, is what God prefers.

 

[MissRose73]

I was born after Vatican II and discovered the TLM a few years ago. I only wish I had years ago found it sooner. I love the beauty and reverence, plus the music and more.