Old/New Testimate Question

[NorthTexan88]

I was in a discussion today with my mom (Church of Christ) who was trying to tell me all that was wrong with the Catholic Church. I held my own for the most part but was unable to answer one thing. Did Jesus do away with the old Testimate? She seems to think that all the old Testimate was “nailed to the cross” can someone explain this to me?

 

[YADA]

If she really believed this - and acted as if that was the real Truth … then why does the Bible used by the Church of Christ still contain the Hebrew Texts [The “Old Testament”]?

Why would that collection of writings be necessary in the collection of Christian writings?

But - the Church of Christ does not actually “do away” with those books … they are used and loved and studied …

What does “nailed to the Cross” mean anyway? Ask 5 individuals and probably get 5 different answers …

 

[NorthTexan88]

If she really believed this - and acted as if that was the real Truth … then why does the Bible used by the Church of Christ still contain the Hebrew Texts [The “Old Testament”]?

Why would that collection of writings be necessary in the collection of Christian writings?

But - the Church of Christ does not actually “do away” with those books … they are used and loved and studied …

What does “nailed to the Cross” mean anyway? Ask 5 individuals and probably get 5 different answers …

My sentiments exactly. I think she was talking about the practices of the old Testimate. I was tellin her prayer for the dead and intercession is found in the real old Testimate, not the one edited by Luther. That’s when she said Christ abolished those practices. I told her He didn’t come to do away with them but to fulfill it.

 

[CalCatholic]

Jesus did not do away with the with the Old Testament. When he appeared to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-35) he said, "Oh, how foolish you are! How slow of heart to believe all that the prophets spoke! Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and enter into his glory? Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures."
Jesus in this passage uses the Old Testament to show his disciples how they point to his coming. The Old Testament was Jesus’ Bible. And the ‘Catechism of the Catholic Church’ says in section 121; **'The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value, for the Old Covenant has never been revoked." **

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I was in a discussion today with my mom (Church of Christ) who was trying to tell me all that was wrong with the Catholic Church. I held my own for the most part but was unable to answer one thing. Did Jesus do away with the old Testimate? She seems to think that all the old Testimate was “nailed to the cross” can someone explain this to me?

I do not for the exact quotation and my english may be bad.
But Jesus answered that question in your terms: “I came not to reject the Law of Moses but to fulfill it”.
Your Mum must be a lovely person for you for she is your Mum. Sorry to tell this, but the Church of Christ is way out of what is Christ’s message. Be patient.

 

[gilbs72]

“Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill them. For truly, I say unto you, til heaven and earth shall pass away, not an iota, not a dot, shall pass from the law until all is accomplished” (Mt. 5:17)

We have to agree that heaven and earth still exist. So does the law - and by this, Jesus was referring to the Old Testament. More importantly, Jesus Himself stated that He didn’t come to abolish the law. So, it’s His Word against the Church of Christ’s.

“Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.” Romans 3:31

“Long ago I learned from your statutes that you established them to last forever.” Psalm 119:152

 

[Khalid]

Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament, and restated in his moral teaching the laws of it that are still applicable. The levitical and ceremonial laws of sacrifice, food restrictions, etc. were nailed to the Cross, but the ten commandments and moral commands were not. To deny that moral law is binding on Christians is to fall in to the damnable heresy of antinomianism - “no matter what I do, I am saved” - and, in the end, have as little rational warrant for the holding of objective moral standards as does an atheist.

 

[William_Pitts]

NorthTexan, the early Church only had the Old Testament books, and oral teaching from the apostles until the New Testament books were written.

Ask your mom if she thinks Paul gives good advice. Then show her this:

2 Timothy 3:15-17 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Then explain that the only sacred witings at the time were the old testament scriptures.

Now “Church of Christ” people are keen on the book of Acts. Show her this verse that shows how the Christians worshipped right after Pentecost:

Act 2:42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

Luke mentions 4 things:

Apostles’ teaching, preaching, teaching, oral tradition at this time, they didn’t have any scriptures except the OT.

Fellowship, which was Christian love for each other.

Breaking of bread, a term that is often used to describe the Eucharist at the time. This was very important to the early Church. This was Christ being present with them as He had promised. The Church of Christ people will not argue with the importance of weekly communion but they don’t take it far enough.

The Prayers, which were the Psalms and other prayers recorded in the OT.

You might also mention this scripture:

Malachi 1:11 **For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts. **

There is no other place this can be fulfilled except the Catholic Church.

1 From the rising of the sun to its setting
2 God’s name is praised among the nations (Gentiles)
3 Incense is offered to God
4 A pure offering. What purer offering is there than Christ Himself?

This OT verse describes accurately the Catholic Church.

I will pray for you and your mom.

 

[promethius]

Did Jesus do away with the old Testimate? She seems to think that all the old Testimate was “nailed to the cross” can someone explain this to me?

The first does not follow from the latter. Your mom is correct, the old was nailed to the cross with Christ… and it resurrected in new and perfect form with Christ as well. To believe that the new covenant is incongruous with the old is to be illiterate in new covenant theology. Christ Himself said that not one jott or tittle of the law would pass away until the end of time. And, to be honest, everything in the new covenant is a fulfillment and perfection of the old:

• Mary is the temple
• her womb the tabernacle
• Jesus is the king that David forshadowed
• Peter is the steward of Israel
• John the Baptist is the fulfillment of Elijah’s forshadowing
• the Crucifixion and Last Supper are the passover feast of the Jews fulfilled in perfection
• Baptism is spiritual circumcision made perfect

There’s more too, of course. To separate the old covenant from the new is to assert that God shows a lack of continuity in the way that He approaches humanity and salvation… and that’s just blasphemous on so many levels…

 

[I_Thirst]

If she really believed this - and acted as if that was the real Truth … then why does the Bible used by the Church of Christ still contain the Hebrew Texts [The “Old Testament”]?

That’s the problem with the Bible the Church of Christ uses. It only uses the OT books written in Hebrew. In the Catholic OT, we include the books in Hebrew and in Greek. CoC advocates sola scriptura, but omits parts of Scripture.

 

[NorthTexan88]

That’s the problem with the Bible the Church of Christ uses. It only uses the OT books written in Hebrew. In the Catholic OT, we include the books in Hebrew and in Greek. CoC advocates sola scriptura, but omits parts of Scripture.

That’s what I tried to explain…she told me that God allowed it to happen so it must be ok…I just about gave up after that

 

[Telestia]

I was in a discussion today with my mom (Church of Christ) who was trying to tell me all that was wrong with the Catholic Church. I held my own for the most part but was unable to answer one thing. Did Jesus do away with the old Testimate? She seems to think that all the old Testimate was “nailed to the cross” can someone explain this to me?

Jesus did not do away with the Old Testament. First of all, there are promises that pertain to the New Covenant of Jesus Christ as well as the restoration of God’s people the Jews (See Romans Chapter 11) as the time of grace for the gentiles to enter into the Kingdom come to a close.

What your mom may have meant is that God terminated the Mosaic Covenant upon Jesus death on the cross.

Zechariah 11:4-14
4 Thus says the LORD my God, “Pasture the flock doomed to slaughter. Those who buy them slay them and go unpunished, and each of those who sell them says, ‘Blessed be the LORD, for I have become rich!’ And their own shepherds have no pity on them. For I will no longer have pity on the inhabitants of the land,” declares the LORD; “but behold, I will cause the men to fall, each into another’s power and into the power of his king; and they will strike the land, and I will not deliver them from their power.”

7 **So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock. Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me. Then I said, “I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another’s flesh.” I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD. I said to them, “IF IT IS GOOD IN YOUR SIGHT GIVE ME MY WAGES; BUT IF NOT, NEVER MIND.” SO THEY WEIGHED OUT THIRTY SHEKELS OF SILVER AS MY WAGES." Then the LORD said to me, “THROW IT TO THE POTTER, THAT MAGNIFICENT PRICE AT WHICH I WAS VALUED BY THEM.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD. **Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
NASU

There is only one bilateral Covenant that God made with the peoples. The Mosaic Covenant. Also note that Zechariah 1-3 is the prophecy of the destruction of Temple in Jerusalem built by King Herod.

The Prophecies of Zechariah Chapters 12 - 14 are being fulfilled now, right before our eyes.