Old, Old Breviary Resources

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

I am assuming that the Breviary was basically stationary in form from the Council of Trent to the Council of Vatican II. So, any pre-conciliar Breviary resource should work, if my assumption is correct.

I am looking for a resource that will show the Offices, Antiphons, and Psalms, etc. used and such. I need particularly the Office of Vespers and particularly for feast days and particularly for the Feast Day of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. And for this feast from the 17th/18th century. And if the Carmelites at that time had a different Office for that feast. And the status of that feast at that time - i.e., for the Universal Church, what ranking (Double of the First Class, etc. - I never did understand the older ranking system at all).

And that is all I can think of at this time.

Thanks in advance.

 

[AJV]

Hello,

I am assuming that the Breviary was basically stationary in form from the Council of Trent to the Council of Vatican II. So, any pre-conciliar Breviary resource should work, if my assumption is correct.

No. There were quite a few changes especially in 1911. And a second major series of revisions in 1955-1961 just before the Council.

Largely saints’ days were added or remained untouched except for updates, but that would depend on the saint.

I am looking for a resource that will show the Offices, Antiphons, and Psalms, etc. used and such. I need particularly the Office of Vespers and particularly for feast days and particularly for the Feast Day of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. And for this feast from the 17th/18th century. And if the Carmelites at that time had a different Office for that feast. And the status of that feast at that time - i.e., for the Universal Church, what ranking (Double of the First Class, etc. - I never did understand the older ranking system at all).

And that is all I can think of at this time.

Thanks in advance.

Fr. Boyd, who now posts on CAF, has provided the Proper Carmelite breviary texts at his site

ctocds.com/chant/index.htm

The ranking system for feasts was:
Double of the I Class
Double of the II Class
Double Major (or Greater Double)
Double Minor (or Lesser Double or simply Double)
Semidouble
Simple

The feast of Mount Carmel was added to the Universal Calendar by Benedict XIII who approved the Office “to be recited by all the Christian faithful of both sexes, who are bound to the canonical hours, in posterity under the rank of Double Major annually on the day July 16”.

For the Universal Church, the feast was given the rank of Greater Double, which was more-or-less the ‘default’ rank for feasts of our Lady. In 1960 when the rankings were revised, it was reduced to a Commemoration, since the object was to lower the ranks of the more ‘local’ feasts that had crept into the calendar.

Of course, the Carmelites always celebrated it with a higher rank and a special Office and Mass. That Office you’ll find at the link above. The Roman one (substantially remianed the same until 1961) you’ll find here

 

[AJV]

Hello,

I am assuming that the Breviary was basically stationary in form from the Council of Trent to the Council of Vatican II. So, any pre-conciliar Breviary resource should work, if my assumption is correct.

No. There were quite a few changes especially in 1911. And a second major series of revisions in 1955-1961 just before the Council.

Largely saints’ days were added or remained untouched except for updates, but that would depend on the saint.

I am looking for a resource that will show the Offices, Antiphons, and Psalms, etc. used and such. I need particularly the Office of Vespers and particularly for feast days and particularly for the Feast Day of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. And for this feast from the 17th/18th century. And if the Carmelites at that time had a different Office for that feast. And the status of that feast at that time - i.e., for the Universal Church, what ranking (Double of the First Class, etc. - I never did understand the older ranking system at all).

And that is all I can think of at this time.

Thanks in advance.

Fr. Boyd, who now posts on CAF, has provided the Proper Carmelite (Disc.) breviary texts at his site

ctocds.com/chant/index.htm

The ranking system for feasts was:
Double of the I Class
Double of the II Class
Double Major (or Greater Double)
Double Minor (or Lesser Double or simply Double)
Semidouble
Simple

The feast of Mount Carmel was added to the Universal Calendar by Benedict XIII who approved the Office “to be recited by all the Christian faithful of both sexes, who are bound to the canonical hours, in posterity under the rank of Double Major annually on the day July 16”.

For the Universal Church, the feast was given the rank of Greater Double, which was more-or-less the ‘default’ rank for feasts of our Lady. In 1960 when the rankings were revised, it was reduced to a Commemoration, since the object was to lower the ranks of the more ‘local’ feasts that had crept into the calendar.

Of course, the Carmelites always celebrated it with a higher rank and a special Office and Mass. That Office you’ll find at the link above. The Roman one (substantially remianed the same until 1961) you’ll find here

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

No. There were quite a few changes especially in 1911. And a second major series of revisions in 1955-1961 just before the Council.

Largely saints’ days were added or remained untouched except for updates, but that would depend on the saint.

Oh! Do you know about the period of the early 1700’s?

Fr. Boyd, who now posts on CAF, has provided the Proper Carmelite breviary texts at his site

ctocds.com/chant/index.htm

Thanks that is interesting. It will provide a good starting place.

The ranking system for feasts was:
Double of the I Class
Double of the II Class
Double Major (or Greater Double)
Double Minor (or Lesser Double or simply Double)
Semidouble
Simple

Thanks, but I still don’t get it. I do think the new tiered ranking system (Solemnity, Feast, Memorial, Optional Memorial) is much easier to understand.

For the Universal Church, the feast was given the rank of Greater Double, which was more-or-less the ‘default’ rank for feasts of our Lady. In 1960 when the rankings were revised, it was reduced to a Commemoration, since the object was to lower the ranks of the more ‘local’ feasts that had crept into the calendar.

Of course, the Carmelites always celebrated it with a higher rank and a special Office and Mass.

I don’t know for certain if it was the Carmelite observance I am looking for, or just the regular Roman Breviary. A listing of the Psalms for the feast might clear things up (for both First and Second Vespers).

AJV:

AJV:

 

[Chatter163]

For the Universal Church, the feast was given the rank of Greater Double, which was more-or-less the ‘default’ rank for feasts of our Lady. In 1960 when the rankings were revised, it was reduced to a Commemoration, since the object was to lower the ranks of the more ‘local’ feasts that had crept into the calendar.

Actually the reclassification of feasts began in 1955, with the decree *Cum Nostra. *This eliminated the semi-doubles, et al.

 

[AJV]

Actually the reclassification of feasts began in 1955, with the decree *Cum Nostra. *This eliminated the semi-doubles, et al.

Yes, I meant the drastic revision of 1960 which affected the feast of Mount Carmel. The way I was looking at it, 1955 did not change the rankings but only dropped one, and demoted feasts and raised Sundays with it. As compared to 1961 which introduced a completely new classification. It therefore didn’t affect Mount Carmel at all. My apologies for the confusion. :tiphat:

JMJ_Coder: to answer your question- I’ll check the Carmelite breviary but as regards the Dis. Carmelites who adopted the Roman books, the psalms for Vespers as the same as the Office in the Roman breviary except they have special antiphons.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Yes, I meant the drastic revision of 1960 which affected the feast of Mount Carmel. The way I was looking at it, 1955 did not change the rankings but only dropped one, and demoted feasts and raised Sundays with it. As compared to 1961 which introduced a completely new classification. It therefore didn’t affect Mount Carmel at all. My apologies for the confusion. :tiphat:

You could have fooled me. At my Parish (Our Lady of Mount Carmel - that might have something to do with it ), we always celebrate the Feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel with much solemnity, pomp, and circumstance.

JMJ_Coder: to answer you’re question- I’ll check the Carmelite breviary but as regards the Dis. Carmelites who adopted the Roman books, the psalms for Vespers as the same as the Office in the Roman breviary except they have special antiphons.

O.K. - so I am looking for the Psalms that would have been used. I have an idea, but I want to be certain - and I need to know which ones were for First Vespers and which for Second Vespers.

I remember find a terrific site that had all the Psalms used for all the Hours for a multitude of religious orders as well as the normal version. But, it was for the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
kellerbook.com/PARVUM~1.HTM

 

[markadm]

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