Old Testament about Jesus

[lukpet]

In the New Testament there are many quotes like “It was fulfilled what was spoken through…, etc.” where the writers of the New Testament want to show how Jesus was foretold in the OT. However when you look at the quoted verses in the OT you will see that this verses are about something different. Why do the NT writers use this verses?

(Examples: John 19:36-37; Matthew 27:9, Mt. 27:35, etc.)

 

[jcrichton]

In the New Testament there are many quotes like “It was fulfilled what was spoken through…, etc.” where the writers of the New Testament want to show how Jesus was foretold in the OT. However when you look at the quoted verses in the OT you will see that this verses are about something different. Why do the NT writers use this verses?

(Examples: John 19:36-37; Matthew 27:9, Mt. 27:35, etc.)

Hi!

…let’s look at the first example you’ve included:

36 Because all this happened to fulfil the words of scripture: Not one bone of his will be broken; 37 and again, in another place scripture says: They will look on the one whom they have pierced.

(St. John 19:36-37)
…these verses follow the description at the Cross… because of Jewish religious custom the Romans had made certain concessions… one of these was to remove the bodies of those crucified for the celebration of the Jewish Sabbath (evening of Friday through Saturday).

…so every person crucified would have an assisted death they did not die by Friday evening… the soldiers would break their legs and death would follow quickly.

…when they came to Jesus, He was already dead… which means that His death was according to Scriptures:

19 Hardships in plenty beset the virtuous man, but Yahweh rescues him from them all;

Shin

20 taking care of every bone, Yahweh will not let one be broken.

(Psalm 34:19-20)
…clearly, there has to be something more than what the prophet is given in Revelation other than that the virtuous man will never suffer a broken bone…

…what if the prophet has been lead to prophesy: ‘God’s Virtuous Man will not have a single bone broken?’

…then we have:

10 But over the House of David and the citizens of Jerusalem I will pour out a spirit of kindness and prayer. They will look on the one whom they have pierced; they will mourn for him as for an only son, and weep for him as people weep for a first-born child.

(Zechariah 12:10)
I’m not a historian… but I cannot recall anyone claiming that “the pierced” one was some grate sage or rabbi or leader of Israel… but even if there were one such person or so… consider the whole passage:

• one that has been pierced
• kindness and prayer involving the House of David and the citizens of Jerusalem
• they will look on Him (the pierced one)
• they will mourn for Him
• Only Son
• they will weep for Him
• First-born Child

…everything speaks of Jesus and what transpired during His arrest, imprisonment, Passion, Death, and Resurrection.

Let’s throw in David’s prophecy, just for good measure:

16 A pack of dogs surrounds me, a gang of Villains closes me in; they tie me hand and foot 15c and leave me lying in the dust of death. 17 I can count every one of my bones, and there they glare at me, gloating; 18 they divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothes.

(Psalm 22:16:18–there are irregularities with the various translations; here we have v 15c inserted after 16; the term used here is “tie” other versions may use “dug” or “pierced;” also, the numbering of the Psalm may differ)
…we know from Scriptures that David was never crucified by the Romans (or any other agency) so his hands and feet could not have been pierced; he could have been persecuted but there’s no mention of his clothes being divided or gambled upon by his tormentors; and pay attention to the part about his bones (he can count them, really?).

Here’s what Yahweh God Commanded to be done with the Passover Lamb (Exodus 12:43-51):

46 It is to be eaten in one house alone, out of which not a single morsel of the flesh is to be taken; nor must you break any bone of it.

(Exodus 12:46)
…what’s the importance?

Jesus is the Passover Lamb (St. John 1:29) and as the type in Exodus (12:1-14), His Blood allows God’s Justice to Mercifully Pass us Over from Death to Life in Jesus Christ: the Perfect Sacrificial Lamb.

Prophecy is not always clear cut… sometimes part of it Unfolds within the lifetime of the prophet; sometimes after the death of the prophet… but always with a Messianic undertone or Unfolding.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

In the New Testament there are many quotes like “It was fulfilled what was spoken through…, etc.” where the writers of the New Testament want to show how Jesus was foretold in the OT. However when you look at the quoted verses in the OT you will see that this verses are about something different. Why do the NT writers use this verses?

(Examples: John 19:36-37; Matthew 27:9, Mt. 27:35, etc.)

The New Testament authors didn’t give chapter and verse at all. The reader is expected to be familiar enough with Scripture so as not to need it (and there’s a good chance the chapter and verse numbering didn’t even exist at that time). What you see is from the publishers of your version or edition of the Bible. Hopefully, they did a good job with their references; however, they may be slightly off or mistaken depending on the version. Even if that is not the case, it is still a factor of interpretation at times. Also, some editions of the Bible give references to the Scripture being cited while others give references to similar verses that would cite the same idea/concept/theology (e.g., Jesus says XYZ in Matthew, so edition A of the Bible points you to the Old Testament verse that Jesus is quoting, while edition B points you to a place in Luke where Jesus makes the same point, while edition C sends you to an OT verse talking about how X and Z are related by Y).

 

[StudentMI]

As Catholics we read the Old Testament in light of the New. It’s part of our faith. If you read those verses just in context of chapter or section then sure, it may seem like it doesn’t mean that. But the proper way to read it as a Christian is to see the prophesied coming of Our Lord. There was a phrase I once heard, sort of like what I quoted in my first sentence, that really put it poetically but sadly I can’t remember it right now.

 

[petra22]

Hi!

…let’s look at the first example you’ve included:

…these verses follow the description at the Cross… because of Jewish religious custom the Romans had made certain concessions… one of these was to remove the bodies of those crucified for the celebration of the Jewish Sabbath (evening of Friday through Saturday).

…so every person crucified would have an assisted death they did not die by Friday evening… the soldiers would break their legs and death would follow quickly.

…when they came to Jesus, He was already dead… which means that His death was according to Scriptures:

…clearly, there has to be something more than what the prophet is given in Revelation other than that the virtuous man will never suffer a broken bone…

…what if the prophet has been lead to prophesy: ‘God’s Virtuous Man will not have a single bone broken?’

…then we have:

I’m not a historian… but I cannot recall anyone claiming that “the pierced” one was some grate sage or rabbi or leader of Israel… but even if there were one such person or so… consider the whole passage:

• one that has been pierced
• kindness and prayer involving the House of David and the citizens of Jerusalem
• they will look on Him (the pierced one)
• they will mourn for Him
• Only Son
• they will weep for Him
• First-born Child

…everything speaks of Jesus and what transpired during His arrest, imprisonment, Passion, Death, and Resurrection.

Let’s throw in David’s prophecy, just for good measure:

…we know from Scriptures that David was never crucified by the Romans (or any other agency) so his hands and feet could not have been pierced; he could have been persecuted but there’s no mention of his clothes being divided or gambled upon by his tormentors; and pay attention to the part about his bones (he can count them, really?).

Here’s what Yahweh God Commanded to be done with the Passover Lamb (Exodus 12:43-51):

…what’s the importance?

Jesus is the Passover Lamb (St. John 1:29) and as the type in Exodus (12:1-14), His Blood allows God’s Justice to Mercifully Pass us Over from Death to Life in Jesus Christ: the Perfect Sacrificial Lamb.

Prophecy is not always clear cut… sometimes part of it Unfolds within the lifetime of the prophet; sometimes after the death of the prophet… but always with a Messianic undertone or Unfolding.

Maran atha!

Angel

Angel, I’ve been wanting to tell you… if I was someone important I would name you “Defender of the Faith!!!” I appreciate your answers so much…

 

[jcrichton]

Angel, I’ve been wanting to tell you… if I was someone important I would name you “Defender of the Faith!!!” I appreciate your answers so much…

Hi, Petra!

Thank you so much for your uplifting and supportive thought!

May the Holy Spirit always be our Guide and Inspire us all to Live and Defend the Faith!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

In the New Testament there are many quotes like “It was fulfilled what was spoken through…, etc.” where the writers of the New Testament want to show how Jesus was foretold in the OT. However when you look at the quoted verses in the OT you will see that this verses are about something different. Why do the NT writers use this verses?

Because Jesus taught them to do so.

Luke 24:25 And he said to them, “Oh, how foolish you are! How slow of heart to believe all that the prophets spoke! 26 Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures.

The idea that Jesus is foretold in the Old Testament, is not something which the Apostles discovered for themselves. Notice that the Apostles immediately began to use this procedure to pass on the Faith:

Acts 17:
Paul in Thessalonica. 1 When they took the road through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they reached Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 Following his usual custom, Paul joined them, and for three sabbaths he entered into discussions with them from the scriptures, 3 expounding and demonstrating that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead, and that “This is the Messiah, Jesus, whom I proclaim to you.”

St. Paul did not have a copy of the New Testament. He was reasoning out of the Old Testament. The only Scriptures available to him and the only one’s the Jews would accept.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

The New Testament authors didn’t give chapter and verse at all. The reader is expected to be familiar enough with Scripture so as not to need it (and there’s a good chance the chapter and verse numbering didn’t even exist at that time). What you see is from the publishers of your version or edition of the Bible. Hopefully, they did a good job with their references; however, they may be slightly off or mistaken depending on the version. Even if that is not the case, it is still a factor of interpretation at times. Also, some editions of the Bible give references to the Scripture being cited while others give references to similar verses that would cite the same idea/concept/theology (e.g., Jesus says XYZ in Matthew, so edition A of the Bible points you to the Old Testament verse that Jesus is quoting, while edition B points you to a place in Luke where Jesus makes the same point, while edition C sends you to an OT verse talking about how X and Z are related by Y).

One of the examples the OP gave was Matthew 27:9-10:

9Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

The problem is there is nothing in Jeremiah (or any other book in the Bible, or any other edition) that references what is claimed in Matthew.

 

[De_Maria]

One of the examples the OP gave was Matthew 27:9-10:

The problem is there is nothing in Jeremiah (or any other book in the Bible, or any other edition) that references what is claimed in Matthew.

St. Matthew did not say it was in the book of Jeremiah. He said:

Matthew 27:9 Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled, saying,

“They took the thirty pieces of silver,
the price of him upon whom a price had been set,
whom some of the children of Israel priced,
10 and they gave them for the potter’s field,
as the Lord commanded me.”

The Apostles occasionally mention things which are not written down anywhere. Whether they were things which were known from Jewish tradition or whether they were informed directly by God, remember that these words are inspired by the Holy Spirit and contain no errors.

 

[JohnR77]

Matthew 27:9,

NAB notes :

Matthew 27:9–10]

• [Cf. http://www.usccb.org/bible/mt/26:15#48026015”]Mt 26:15. Matthew’s attributing this text to Jeremiah is puzzling, for there is no such text in that book, and the thirty pieces of silver thrown by Judas “into the temple” (Mt 27:5) recall rather Zec 11:12–13. It is usually said that the attribution of the text to Jeremiah is due to Matthew’s combining the Zechariah text with texts from Jeremiah that speak of a potter (Jer 18:2–3), the buying of a field (Jer 32:6–9), or the breaking of a potter’s flask at Topheth in the valley of Ben-Hinnom with the prediction that it will become a burial place (Jer 19:1–13).

 

[jcrichton]

One of the examples the OP gave was Matthew 27:9-10:

The problem is there is nothing in Jeremiah (or any other book in the Bible, or any other edition) that references what is claimed in Matthew.

Hi, Mike!

Wow… I think that you could be missing some pages from your Bible… or perhaps it is simply that you are not able to connect the dots from point *a *to point *b *in a simple clear cut manner so you miss the forest for the trees:

10 I then took my staff, Goodwill, and broke it in half, to break the covenant Yahweh had made with all the peoples.

11 When it was broken, that day the dealers, who were watching me, realised that** this had been a word of Yahweh**. 12 I then said to them, ‘If you think it right, give me my wages; if not, never mind’. And they weighed out my wages:** thirty shekels of silver.** 13 But Yahweh told me, ‘Throw it into the treasury, this princely sum at which** they have valued me’**. Taking the thirty shekels of silver, I threw them into the Temple of Yahweh, into the treasury. (Zechariah 11:10-13)
…Scriptural prophecies are not a read from a romantic/thriller novel where the themes are geared to bring the reader to the final cliffhanger/twist ending. Something in the prophecy my reflect acts that will unfold during the prophet’s lifetime… but hidden within these prophecies are the Messianic experiences:

• God’s Covenant with Israel has been trampled upon by Israel so Breaks the Old Covenant to inject the New Covenant (note “all the peoples”)

*“the Word of Yahweh:” God’s Revelation

• “thirty shekels of silver:” where they shekels or other coins–fact remains “30” for the Price of God (“they have value me”)
• “Throw it into the treasury;” exactly what Judas did

…now, did St. Matthew err in referencing Jeremiah as the source for the purchasing of the potter’s field?:

15 For Yahweh Sabaoth, the God of Israel, says this, “People will buy fields and vineyards in this land again”.

(Jeremiah 32:6-15–also see Jeremiah 19:1-13)
…people in deed had the freedom to buy “fields” in Jerusalem.

…did you get the connection with the broken Old Covenant and the Placement of the New Covenant?:

6 The chief priests picked up the silver pieces and said, ‘It is against the Law to put this into the treasury; it is blood-money’. 7 So they discussed the matter and bought the potter’s field with it as a graveyard for foreigners, 8 and this is why the field is called the Field of Blood today.

(St. Matthew 27:6-8)
…they acknowledged that the coins are Blood (Jesus’) Money–they pretend to do works of justice with it by providing, with Jesus’ Blood, a cemetery for foreigners.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

NAB notes :

Matthew 27:9–10]

• [Cf. http://www.usccb.org/bible/mt/26:15#48026015”]Mt 26:15

. Matthew’s attributing this text to Jeremiah is puzzling, for there is no such text in that book, and the thirty pieces of silver thrown by Judas “into the temple” (Mt 27:5) recall rather Zec 11:12–13. It is usually said that the attribution of the text to Jeremiah is due to Matthew’s combining the Zechariah text with texts from Jeremiah that speak of a potter (Jer 18:2–3), the buying of a field (Jer 32:6–9), or the breaking of a potter’s flask at Topheth in the valley of Ben-Hinnom with the prediction that it will become a burial place (Jer 19:1–13).Hi, John!

…yeah, I forgot to include the passage in Jeremiah 19–today we have it so easy… what with the numbering of pages, chapters and verses… back when… they actually had to know the references not just simply look them up: book, chapter, and verse!

…so yeah, it can get confusing for us… just think back a few years… before the automatic registering of telephone numbers on your cell/phone… people needed to actually take down a number or memorize it… now we just flip through the phone’s list/history and click!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Hi, Mike!

Wow… I think that you could be missing some pages from your Bible… or perhaps it is simply that you are not able to connect the dots from point *a *to point *b *in a simple clear cut manner so you miss the forest for the trees:

No, I’m quite aware of that passage that you reference. It’s just that this passage does not say what Matthew says.

…Scriptural prophecies are not a read from a romantic/thriller novel where the themes are geared to bring the reader to the final cliffhanger/twist ending. Something in the prophecy my reflect acts that will unfold during the prophet’s lifetime… but hidden within these prophecies are the Messianic experiences:

When you say “hidden” I think it’s more accurate to say that you are making great leaps to force a connective thread between the two passages. The two passages are quite different.

The one connective point is the 30 pieces of silver. It seems you’re pulling a Lee Strobel, using any item to try and claim a Messianic prophecy where there is none. It’s why people try to link passages like Psalm 69:9 and John 2:17 because they both say, “Zeal for your house [will] consume me”

**What good is a prophecy when the words have to be twisted so much to make them fit?

What good is a prophecy when it’s not clear if it has been fulfilled?**

…yeah, I forgot to include the passage in Jeremiah 19–today we have it so easy… what with the numbering of pages, chapters and verses… back when… they actually had to know the references not just simply look them up: book, chapter, and verse!

The Bible was allegedly guided into being by The Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church says the Bible is true, although sometimes in symbolic ways. These concepts are often put aside when an item that is false in all ways is found in the Bible.

Zacheriah is not Jeremiah, and there is no symbolic reason for that incorrect line to be there.

How many false elements can a prophecy or a reference to a prophecy have before it is no longer true? One? Two? Twenty?

 

[Augustine3]

The New Testament authors didn’t give chapter and verse at all.

Scripture was not divided into chapters and verses back then

 

[jcrichton]

No, I’m quite aware of that passage that you reference. It’s just that this passage does not say what Matthew says.

When you say “hidden” I think it’s more accurate to say that you are making great leaps to force a connective thread between the two passages. The two passages are quite different.

The one connective point is the 30 pieces of silver. It seems you’re pulling a Lee Strobel, using any item to try and claim a Messianic prophecy where there is none. It’s why people try to link passages like Psalm 69:9 and John 2:17 because they both say, “Zeal for your house [will] consume me”

**What good is a prophecy when the words have to be twisted so much to make them fit?

What good is a prophecy when it’s not clear if it has been fulfilled?**

The Bible was allegedly guided into being by The Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church says the Bible is true, although sometimes in symbolic ways. These concepts are often put aside when an item that is false in all ways is found in the Bible.

Zacheriah is not Jeremiah, and there is no symbolic reason for that incorrect line to be there.

How many false elements can a prophecy or a reference to a prophecy have before it is no longer true? One? Two? Twenty?

Hi, Mike!

…so you think that prophecy should read as a grocery list?

…have you ever noticed how a grocery list is not fully reflected on the shopping cart? …sometimes the items listed are not found; …sometimes the items in the cart were chosen at random or by the spur of the moment…

Scriptural prophecy is not a redaction or a list to be checked off… and hindsight cannot determine what the mind and understanding of people, 2000 years removed, actually thought and understood…

…you (as other atheist and some “Bible only” Believers) misunderstand the purpose of the Word of God; God is not making a Revelation to satisfy man’s curiosity or his “need to know” itch.

…and talk about skewed measures… today’s news agencies (as well as other agencies) get so much wrong information and jump to so many wrong conclusions that it is beyond laughable and credibility… yet you want to determine the value and correctness of 2000 years of history through present-day reasoning, knowledge, and understanding?..

…there’s a Biblical quote for this:

24 You blind guides! Straining out gnats and swallowing camels!

(St. Matthew 23:34)
…nitpicking will not undo the fact that Jesus Fulfilled the Prophecies of the Messiah and that He died for our Salvation, according to God’s Salvific Plan, which was in effect from the Beginning:

3 Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who** has blessed us with all the spiritual blessings of heaven in Christ**

. 4 Before the world was made, he chose us, chose us in Christ, to be holy and spotless, and to live through love in his presence, 5 determining that we should become his adopted sons, through Jesus Christ for his own kind purposes, (Ephesians 1:3-5)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Athanasiy]

Even the sacrifice of Abel who sacrificed the lamb, and whose sacrifice was accepted by God, can be called the echo of the Christian idea of redemption.
Later, throughout the centuries when the sacrifice of a lamb was practiced in practice, a person should believe in the depth of this practice.
The lamb is an innocent being. Unlike other animals, the lamb is silent on the slaughter.
The innocent lamb did not sin - I sinned.
The innocent lamb did not deserve punishment, I deserved punishment.
An innocent lamb was slain for me, instead of me, for my sake, because of me. It was a symbolism in which the Christian idea of redemption is hidden.
Some people think that the first chapters of the Bible are symbolic and in reality everything was completely different, but it seems to me that one should pay attention to every verse in the Holy Scriptures.
For example, I found an interesting verse about which I had not thought before, in the same story about Cain and Abel, we learn that blood has the ability to scream from under the earth, the innocent blood of the human soul cries for revenge from Heaven.
The history of mankind itself, proves for example that people believed that “without shedding blood there is no forgiveness”.

 

[petra22]

Some people think that the first chapters of the Bible are symbolic and in reality everything was completely different, but it seems to me that one should pay attention to every verse in the Holy Scriptures.
.

I loved your post and this part made me think about the Mass Readings last weekend…
Reading 1
Wis 12:13, 16-19…
There is no god besides you who have the care of all,
that you need show you have not unjustly condemned…
(…)
and you gave your children good ground for hope
that you would *permit repentance for their sins.

In Wisdom already God was planning to give us repentance for our sins… probably it went farther back than that. Probably back to Adam and EVE… I’m so amazed… It wasn’t somehting John the Baptist started… it started WAY BACK…

 

[jcrichton]

I loved your post and this part made me think about the Mass Readings last weekend…
Reading 1
Wis 12:13, 16-19…
There is no god besides you who have the care of all,
that you need show you have not unjustly condemned…
(…)
and you gave your children good ground for hope
that you would *permit repentance for their sins.

In Wisdom already God was planning to give us repentance for our sins… probably it went farther back than that. Probably back to Adam and EVE… I’m so amazed… It wasn’t somehting John the Baptist started… it started WAY BACK…

Hi, Petra!

…it actually goes to the very Beginning:

9 who has saved us and called us to be holy – not because of anything we ourselves have done but for his own purpose and by his own grace. This grace had already been granted to us, in Christ Jesus, before the beginning of time,

(2 Timothy 1:9)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[petra22]

Hi, Petra!

…it actually goes to the very Beginning:

Maran atha!

Angel

/QUOTE in

I believe it!! I was just so amazed to see it written in such plain language… I have probably seen it before but this weekend it just crystallized in my little heart!!! Thank you, Eternal Father…

 

[jcrichton]

jcrichton;14804256:

Hi, Petra!

…it actually goes to the very Beginning:

Maran atha!

Angel

I believe it!! I was just so amazed to see it written in such plain language… I have probably seen it before but this weekend it just crystallized in my little heart!!! Thank you, Eternal Father…

Hi, Petra!

Exactly! We must give thanks to God; not only has He Revealed Himself to us, but He is Merciful and Patient enough to work with us at our own individual pace… and there’s even better New!

God is not petty, He does not set us against each other… each one of us Receives the same wages (St Matthew 20:1-16); what truly matters to God is our willingness to Follow Him!

Maran atha!

Angel