Old Testament and Depravity

[Suzanmo]

Isn’t the Old Testament the most depraved book ever written?
Lot is raped by his daughters, Jacob’s son sleeps with one of his father’s wives, David kills a soldier to take his wife,solomon had 1000 wives, incests, stonings, murders, etc.

OT and NT are like night and day, OT is one of jews sacred books and their secular history. Why and when did the church decided that it should be part of the bible? Why should the disgusting stories of the jews be part of christian’s holy book?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Isn’t the Old Testament the most depraved book ever written?
Lot is raped by his daughters, Jacob’s son sleeps with one of his father’s wives, David kills a soldier to take his wife,solomon had 1000 wives, incests, stonings, murders, etc.

OT and NT are like night and day, OT is one of jews sacred books and their secular history. Why and when did the church decided that it should be part of the bible? Why should the disgusting stories of the jews be part of christian’s holy book?

Seeing that with out the Jews there would be no Christians and no Salvation, yes it should be part of our Holy Book. It is not just stories of the Jews, it is our story as well.

The secular history is also part of the religious history. With out the Old Testament, there is no New Testament.

 

[JudieK]

I guess the best answer I can think of is that the OT is the story or God’s Chosen people, with all their human failings… It outlines what we call Salvation History- the story of God’s relationship with humans from creation until the coming of the Christ. The stories certainly demonstrate WHY we needed a savior in the first place! Of course history will bear out that Christianity has a checkered past as well! Everything chronicled in the OT teaches us something about God and somehow hints at Christ, who fufilled all things. It demonstrates how flawed we are as human beings, and how much in need of forgiveness we are. It also shows that God will forgive our unfaithfulness over and over again. And yet one more thing- it shows that God works in our human weakness to bring about His own awesome plan… that even while the human players were with fault, God’s perfect will can be done. That’s my opinion, anyway.

 

[Suzanmo]

Seeing that with out the Jews there would be no Christians and no Salvation, yes it should be part of our Holy Book. It is not just stories of the Jews, it is our story as well.

The secular history is also part of the religious history. With out the Old Testament, there is no New Testament.

Would you encourage your children to read the OT?

And no I don’t agree that these are our stories as well. Each one of us comes from a different cultural background.

 

[Suzanmo]

I guess the best answer I can think of is that the OT is the story or God’s Chosen people, with all their human failings… .

I don’t know how jews view themselves as"chosen people" but in my opinion jews were not the chosen people because of their light and virtue, but because of their spiritual darkness. God in his mercy send his prophets to show them the Way.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Would you encourage your children to read the OT?

Short answer, yes.

And no I don’t agree that these are our stories as well. Each one of us comes from a different cultural background.

True, but all Christians share the cultural background of being Christian and as Christians came from the Jews, they are our stories.

Again, with out the Old Testament, there is no New Testament.

As Christ says in the fifth chapter of Matthew.

17: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.

18: For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

19: Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So I take it that you would have us drop the Old Testament. But then what of the Ten Commandments? Do they apply to Christians even though they were given to the Jews? What about all the parts of the Old Testament that tell us who Christ is? Do those prophecies mean anything to Christians even though they were given to the Jews?

With out the Old Testament the New Testament means nothing.

And as Christ says, “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven”.

 

[Melchior]

Would you encourage your children to read the OT?

And no I don’t agree that these are our stories as well. Each one of us comes from a different cultural background.

And does your cultural background teach you to disdain the Jews?

If you take those examples you pointed out in context you will see that those things are not celebrated, but they are historical events that God uses to show the ugliness of sin and the power of redemption. And by the way, Jesus was a Jew as were all the Apostles. The NT is a very Jewish book written entirely by Jews perhaps with the exception of Luke and Acts.

 

[Suzanmo]

And does your cultural background teach you to disdain the Jews?

No I never said that. I just said that their spirit was dark, this is an objective observation.

THe NT IS NOT a jewish book. The teachings of the NT are not limited to the jews.

 

[Suzanmo]

Short answer, yes.

.

That’s really funny, considering that the church and christian parents discourage their kids to watch violent movies or play computer games. I have never seen any movie with half of the depravity of OT stories.

 

[Suzanmo]

So I take it that you would have us drop the Old Testament. But then what of the Ten Commandments? Do they apply to Christians even though they were given to the Jews? What about all the parts of the Old Testament that tell us who Christ is? Do those prophecies mean anything to Christians even though they were given to the Jews?

With out the Old Testament the New Testament means nothing.

Leave the 10 comandments, I was talking about the secular history.

OT doesn’t tell us who Christ is. There are only prophecies, and most of them point to the second coming.

And as Christ says, “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven”.

Perhaps I will be the last, I don’t give a damn.

 

[Ceil-1]

Young children should have a story-book version of the Old Testament, IMO. I loved the Golden Book version with the pictures, you know, that big tan one. It has easy to read stories and great pictures. Everything I knew about God came from that Bible.

Our priest, giving a seminar on Theology of the Body, told us that
what God allowed in a marriage changed drastically over the years because people were so primitive and simple.

Could it be Christian civilization has softened us up a bit? Given us a horror for depravity? Not to worry, we seem to be reverting back to our primitive ways, don’t you think?

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

That’s really funny, considering that the church and christian parents discourage their kids to watch violent movies or play computer games. I have never seen any movie with half of the depravity of OT stories.

Ah yes, the depravity of the OT stories. I’ve been discussing with a Deist about the horrors of the OT - such as the Midianite men being killed, the non-virgin women and even children being killed. This person didn’t see the morality of that considering it was done at God’s command by Moses (who the Deist believes was a monster of a person).

It isn’t pretty, Suzan. There are many things we will probably never understand. But, it boils down to whether or not you believe that Scripture is true and whether or not God knows best, whereas we do not. He sees history all the way through. He knows the beginning from the end.

Yes, the OT is filled with fallen heroes and sinners. That hasn’t changed. We fall under the same category. They weren’t superhumans who had an ulimited capacity for holiness. They were part of the human race with the same fallen nature as we have.

Now, about the kids issue. My kids love the story of Moses, the Red Sea, the deliverance from Egypt (which I remind you included the killing of the firstborn in Egypt), the stories of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. There’s lots of good moral stories in Scripture. And I have no problem reading those stories.

I encourage kids to read the OT because it is a picture of who we are as humans and shows us why we needed a Savior. And that all ties into the story in the NT of the prodigal son. What kinds of things do you want to keep from kids? Reading the OT is not like watching a CSI episode or playing the video game Hitman. Why do you think it is?

Peace…

MW

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Short answer, yes.

True, but all Christians share the cultural background of being Christian and as Christians came from the Jews, they are our stories.

Again, with out the Old Testament, there is no New Testament.

As Christ says in the fifth chapter of Matthew.

17: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.

18: For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

19: Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So I take it that you would have us drop the Old Testament. But then what of the Ten Commandments? Do they apply to Christians even though they were given to the Jews? What about all the parts of the Old Testament that tell us who Christ is? Do those prophecies mean anything to Christians even though they were given to the Jews?

With out the Old Testament the New Testament means nothing.

And as Christ says, “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven”.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

No I never said that. I just said that their spirit was dark, this is an objective observation.

THe NT IS NOT a jewish book. The teachings of the NT are not limited to the jews.

Wrong, the New Testament is a Jewish Book, it was written by Jews who thought that one could be a Christian and a Jew.

What about the depravity of the New Testament? There is much secular history in there too. How about Herod’s order to kill the infants? Should that be removed also?

The Bible, the whole thing, is the Inspired Word of God, who are we to pick and chose what should be in there?

 

[Melchior]

No I never said that. I just said that their spirit was dark, this is an objective observation.

There is nothing objective about saying an entire race has a dark spirit. Particulalry, when the OT Jews were the people of God.
Boaz, Moses, Esther, Elijah, Elisha, Samuel and Jonathan had dark spirits? I am sorry but you seem to have a very shallow theological grasp of the OT. In every dark moment you mentioned in that period where you pointed out a few bad things in a book that spans thousands of years, you failed to show that the consequences are also recorded and what the message is.

THe NT IS NOT a jewish book. The teachings of the NT are not limited to the jews.

Of course I never said the teachings of the NT were limited to Jews. Of course not. If you knew much about Judaism you would see that th NT is very Jewish in character. All but one of it’s writers were Jewish, so how can you say otherwise? You cannot even fully understand the NT without the OT or having some knowledge of Judiasm and Israel’s history.

Arguably, are civilized world we currently live in is much darker than anything in the OT. We murder our children by the millions in sanitized little rooms - sacrificed to the new pagan god of convenience. Nothing even comes close in the Bible.

 

[Suzanmo]

Wrong, the New Testament is a Jewish Book, it was written by Jews who thought that one could be a Christian and a Jew.

It was writtten by jews, but the message is universal

What about the depravity of the New Testament? There is much secular history in there too. How about Herod’s order to kill the infants? Should that be removed also?

I haven’t found any unjust laws in the new testament.

The Bible, the whole thing, is the Inspired Word of God, who are we to pick and chose what should be in there?

Oh not again, the teachings are inspired by god, but the deeds are not.

What you call BIble is a collection of texts, sacred and secular, compiled by the Church. Who is the church to pick and choose what is in there? What about the multitude of sacred writings found? Why aren’t they in the bible?
Here, is a long list of jewish and christian texts.
christianityhijacked.org/references.html

 

[slyboots]

As a child my mother read to me from a Bible story set of books which told the stories of the OT. I learned about the snakes biting the Israelites and Moses raising the staff. I heard about how one of Joseph’s brothers gave his daughter in law his seal as a pledge for favors which resulted in her pregnancy, how Dina, a daughter of David, was compromised by one of her half brothers, the drunkeness of Noah and his disrespectful sons.
But somehow listening to these stories did not damage me. I learned of Abraham’s duplicity when he lied to Pharoah. I learned about parents such as Jacob, the trickster, whose heart was broken by his children’s behavior. I learned about forgiveness when Joseph brings his brothers who had so ill used him, into Egypt to live safely for many years.
Yes, the OT is full of sin and suffering. But it never hurt me to hear it. It prepared me for the forgiveness and mercy of the NT and the coming of the Lord.

 

[ChristinaM]

Some of those “depraved” folks were Jesus’ ancestors! The genealogy of Jesus in the Gospel shows us that all things work for God’s purposes.

We need to look at the “big picture” of salvation history in order to understand the OT. I recommend Scott Hahn’s writing, he has some good writings on covenant theology and salvation history, and they really helped me understand the OT better.

 

[JudieK]

What you call BIble is a collection of texts, sacred and secular, compiled by the Church. Who is the church to pick and choose what is in there?

The Church was founded by Christ and given authority BY HIM to do such things. The Holy Spirit guides the Church and flows from the Church. That is who the Church is .

 

[Suzanmo]

The Church was founded by Christ and given authority BY HIM to do such things. The Holy Spirit guides the Church and flows from the Church. That is who the Church is .

Do you really believe that?

Was the church commanded by Christ to persecute Galileo and other scientists, burn Joan d’arc, burn witches and start the crusades?