Old Testament and Depravity

[Mystic_Warrior]

Do you really believe that?

Was the church commanded by Christ to persecute Galileo and other scientists, burn Joan d’arc, burn witches and start the crusades?

Did God put YOU in charge of judging your brothers and sisters in Christ?

 

[FCEGM]

Do you really believe that?

ALL Catholics are to ascent in faith to THAT.

Was the church commanded by Christ to persecute Galileo and other scientists, burn Joan d’arc, burn witches and start the crusades

Apples and oranges. The Catholic Church cannot err in its teachings re Faith and Morals. Catholics can, however, be quite sinful singly and collectively.

So, it seems you have a problem not just with the Old Testament, but with the Church itself.

 

[Suzanmo]

Did God put YOU in charge of judging your brothers and sisters in Christ?

Sorry? I didn’t get that.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Sorry? I didn’t get that.

Of course you didn’t get that. You’ve been too busy telling Catholics about how wrong their Bible is, their pope is, their history is, how depraved the OT is, how the Jews were in spiritual darkness and God knows what other ignorance you’ve displayed with your frivolous thread to date. You’ve managed to criticize Christianity pretty well so far for one who claims to be one. You can be proud of yourself. You’ve accomplished a lot in such a short time.

 

[Suzanmo]

Of course you didn’t get that. You’ve been too busy telling Catholics about how wrong their Bible is, their pope is, their history is, how depraved the OT is, how the Jews were in spiritual darkness and God knows what other ignorance you’ve displayed with your frivolous thread to date. You’ve managed to criticize Christianity pretty well so far for one who claims to be one. You can be proud of yourself. You’ve accomplished a lot in such a short time.

I knew that somebody would come to that conclusion eventually?
I dind’t criticize christianity. Everything I said is true.
Why do all the religious people (christian, muslims etc) have such a fragile ego? Why do they all seek to protect their little selves and their little doctrines and refuse to look the truth and see the facts the way they are?

Everybody wants to protect himself, but nobody desires to know himself.

 

[mercygate]

Isn’t the Old Testament the most depraved book ever written?
Lot is raped by his daughters, Jacob’s son sleeps with one of his father’s wives, David kills a soldier to take his wife,solomon had 1000 wives, incests, stonings, murders, etc.

OT and NT are like night and day, OT is one of jews sacred books and their secular history. Why and when did the church decided that it should be part of the bible? Why should the ********** stories of the jews be part of christian’s holy book?

Because Jesus said they were and we take Him at His word.

 

[mercygate]

Short answer, yes.

True, but all Christians share the cultural background of being Christian and as Christians came from the Jews, they are our stories.

Again, with out the Old Testament, there is no New Testament.

As Christ says in the fifth chapter of Matthew.

17: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.

18: For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

19: Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So I take it that you would have us drop the Old Testament. But then what of the Ten Commandments? Do they apply to Christians even though they were given to the Jews? What about all the parts of the Old Testament that tell us who Christ is? Do those prophecies mean anything to Christians even though they were given to the Jews?

With out the Old Testament the New Testament means nothing.

And as Christ says, “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven”.

One thing that’s great about being Catholic is that we don’t have to continually re-live old heresies. We put the smack-down on Marcionism, with its rejection of the Old Testament, in the second century. Case closed. What a relief.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I knew that somebody would come to that conclusion eventually?

Based on what you wrote, it’s a justifiable conclusion.

I dind’t criticize christianity. Everything I said is true.

You criticized the OT, the OT prophets and kings, the Catholic Church (for things that they really didn’t do) and managed to slam the Jews as well. Good job

Why do all the religious people (christian, muslims etc) have such a fragile ego?

Your profile says you are a Christian. Are you including yourself as having a fragile ego? Or is it just the other Christians who are misguided? You think it’s a fragile ego that causes a rebuke. I think it’s defending the truth against unfounded conclusions and criticisms.

Why do they all seek to protect their little selves and their little doctrines and refuse to look the truth and see the facts the way they are?

LOL. Oh my. And aren’t you protecting your “little doctrines”? This is rich, really rich. All Christian churches that I know of defend the Old Testament as inspired Scripture. Is that one of the “little doctrines” you are speaking of? Sure, if the OT offends you so much, then look for every Bible you can find (which all Christians are required to believe from beginning to end) and rip out the OT from it. Then you will have exactly what you wanted - a faith with no foundation.

Everybody wants to protect himself, but nobody desires to know himself.

Odd thing to say. I’m intrigued.

 

[mercygate]

Do you really believe that?

Was the church commanded by Christ to persecute Galileo and other scientists, burn Joan d’arc, burn witches and start the crusades?

1. The Crusades were actually motivated by the need to liberate the Holy Land (particularly the Holy Sepulchre) from the Seljuk Turks. The greatest problem was that we did not finish the job.
2. Was Galileo actually persecuted? If you read the history, you will see that he was treated temperately, considering that he was proposing a raw but not fully confirmed theory as fact, that he wanted the Pope to change the Bible to fit his theory, and that he called the Pope a fool in public for not doing so. Copernicus, who proposed the heliocentric system earlier, had no difficulties with the Church.
3. Joan of Arc? Another complicated story. But since the Church has recognized as a Saint, there could possibly be more to her story than the notoriously anti-Catholic George Bernard Shaw wrote into the play that made her story framiliar to laymen.

 

[mercygate]

I knew that somebody would come to that conclusion eventually?
I dind’t criticize christianity. Everything I said is true.
Why do all the religious people (christian, muslims etc) have such a fragile ego? Why do they all seek to protect their little selves and their little doctrines and refuse to look the truth and see the facts the way they are?

Everybody wants to protect himself, but nobody desires to know himself.

Except you, of course.

 

[JudieK]

Do you really believe that?

Was the church commanded by Christ to persecute Galileo and other scientists, burn Joan d’arc, burn witches and start the crusades?

Of course I believe that. I take Christ at His word! Christ also quoted OT scripture on the road to Emmaus and opened it up to his companions as to how all of it related to Him. If it’s good enough for our Lord, it’s good enough for me.

Just as the Jews were imperfect humans, so are Christians. Remember I said Christianity also has a checkered past? Sinful people do sinful things… you and I included. Thank goodness for the grace and forgiveness of God! The truths the Church has taught and defended have not changed. The WAY the Church conducted itself throughout history has changed, because it was made up of sinful people! Thank goodness the Holy Spirit has protected and guided the Church all these years!

For the record, I do not have a fragile ego at all. My faith doesn’t depend on what you or anyone else thinks. I pray that everyone will find the truth and the beauty of the Catholic faith, but if you don’t, you don’t. Faith is a gift. True faith is not angry. You are the one who seems angry and aggressive. You are the one who wandered into a CATHOLIC forum and started agitating. Perhaps it is your ego that is fragile? You also sound a little new-agey. Christianity and the New Age do not mix very well.

 

[JudieK]

Why do all the religious people (christian, muslims etc) have such a fragile ego? Why do they all seek to protect their little selves and their little doctrines and refuse to look the truth and see the facts the way they are?

Everybody wants to protect himself, but nobody desires to know himself.

Also: what do you mean “protect their little selves and their little doctrines?” Catholic doctrine is hardly “little,” it has been the driving force behind Western Civilization for more than a thousand years. We do not need to protect it- the Holy Spirit has that job covered. But we are called to explain it and yes, defend it if need be from detractors. Sitting idly by while our beautiful faith is mocked and maligned is unthinkable… it’s like watching someone spit on your own mother and not saying a word. The real question is why people feel the need to jump in and start attacking it that way. Protecting our little selves? Well, as I’ve said many times, some of the most amazing minds in all of history have been Catholic, and so our “little selves” are in great company. A true Catholic wishes to “die to themselves” so as to “live in Christ.” We don’t refuse to see facts… but we do see all through the eyes of faith. We see all the ugly realities of life, and yet we can also see God’s hand moving the world in amazing ways. Refuse to know ourselves? Really? I think we know ourselves all too well. In fact, we examine our consciences and confess our shortcomings on a regular basis. I think it is the rest of the world that refuses to “know themselves” by pretending they have no sin and that everything is OK. To me, that’s delusional.

 

[jcrichton]

Isn’t the Old Testament the most depraved book ever written?
Lot is raped by his daughters, Jacob’s son sleeps with one of his father’s wives, David kills a soldier to take his wife,solomon had 1000 wives, incests, stonings, murders, etc.

OT and NT are like night and day, OT is one of jews sacred books and their secular history. Why and when did the church decided that it should be part of the bible? Why should the disgusting stories of the jews be part of christian’s holy book?

Hi, Suzanmo!

Should we remove Jesus from the New Testament?

According to your logic He is the worst Christian ever since He not only quoted the Old Testament but He changed some of its theology while remaining deeply immersed in it!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Would you encourage your children to read the OT?

And no I don’t agree that these are our stories as well. Each one of us comes from a different cultural background.

Hi, Suzanmo!

Do you not know that Sacred Scriptures were given to us by God? It was the Holy Spirit that Inspired holy men (servants of Yahweh God) to write these Sacred Scrolls. If we deny one portion of the Word of God we deny God!

…though I must agree with you that we, Catholics/Christians come from various different cultures and racial ethnicity, I cannot stress enough that you are holding on to values that only serve to divide: In Christ there is no longer a Jew, a Gentile, a man or a woman… in Him we are all children of God; all of us decend but from one origin man, Abraham, since it was to him that Yahweh God made the Promise ("…you will be father of many nations…"); St. Paul goes into an excellent explanation of this in Romans 9:1 through 11:32.

Our diverse cultures and ethnicity should be celebrated as part of our great Christian heritage which is deeply entrenched in Judaism (Salvation comes from the Jews).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I don’t know how jews view themselves as"chosen people" but in my opinion jews were not the chosen people because of their light and virtue, but because of their spiritual darkness. God in his mercy send his prophets to show them the Way.

Hi, Suzanmo!

…though you have the right to hold any particular view/opinion, you are wrong!

Yahweh God did not elect the Jews because they were more evil than the other people. Please take time to, slowly, read through the Old Testament (starting from Genesis); just as Yahweh God chose us, the Gentiles, in Jesus (children of the Spirit), He chose Israel in Abraham (children of the blood/flesh).

It is interesting to read the Holy Scriptures as we discover that God’s Way is so far removed from ours; it is also interesting to note that we, as the prophet Jonah, become incensed when we learn about the huge rebelliousness (both individual and as a nation) of His chosen people and the ultimate rejection of the Messiah (which was prophesized) which afforded us (made it possible for us to receive God’s Mercy), the Gentiles, entry into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

That’s really funny, considering that the church and christian parents discourage their kids to watch violent movies or play computer games. I have never seen any movie with half of the depravity of OT stories.

Hi, Suzanmo!

…are you comparing the Bible’s Old Testament (Coincidentally, the Biblical meaning of “Testament” is “a covenant with Yahweh God.”) with hollo-wood’s “entertainment” mechanism?

…sorry to disappoint: hollo-wood’s rendering of morality and spirituality is based on the premise that “all is good–except Jesus, God, the Bible and the Church” (coincidentally, that is becoming the cultural norm in the US). In its use of violence and sex it is promoting the darkest depravity of human egocentrism; it promotes evil as enlightenment, liberation, and intellectualism… conversely, the Bible demonstrates that those who commit such acts (both Scriptures’ and hollow-wood’s depictions and violence and immorality) have rejected Yahweh God and have succumbed to their rebellious nature.

If you are genuinely concerned for your children, perhaps you should look into a children’s Bible to get them involved in the Holy Scriptures at a level that is more “age” appropriate for them; in the mean while, you can become more familiarized with the Holy Scriptures (learning as much as you can about the Old Testament theology) and, once confortable enough, you can introduce them to the adult version of the Holy Scriptures.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Leave the 10 comandments, I was talking about the secular history.

OT doesn’t tell us who Christ is. There are only prophecies, and most of them point to the second coming.

Perhaps I will be the last, I don’t give a damn.

Hi, Suzanmo!

Your expression is surprising… you started out concerned about the violence and immorality depicted in the Old Testament, yet you are quick to resort to violence and contemptuous language…

Please do not take offense… if you do not personalize the replies you will be able to better benefit from them…

…I suspect that you do care; the fact that you are searching demonstrates that God and His Word matter to you.

May the Holy Spirit enlingten your mind, your home and your journey!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

It was writtten by jews, but the message is universal

I haven’t found any unjust laws in the new testament.

Oh not again, the teachings are inspired by god, but the deeds are not.

What you call BIble is a collection of texts, sacred and secular, compiled by the Church. Who is the church to pick and choose what is in there? What about the multitude of sacred writings found? Why aren’t they in the bible?
Here, is a long list of jewish and christian texts.
christianityhijacked.org/references.html

So you do not believe in the Holy Spirit?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Do you really believe that?

Was the church commanded by Christ to persecute Galileo and other scientists, burn Joan d’arc, burn witches and start the crusades?

So you do not believe in the Holy Spirit?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I knew that somebody would come to that conclusion eventually?
I dind’t criticize christianity. Everything I said is true.
Why do all the religious people (christian, muslims etc) have such a fragile ego? Why do they all seek to protect their little selves and their little doctrines and refuse to look the truth and see the facts the way they are?

Everybody wants to protect himself, but nobody desires to know himself.

…huh?

Maran atha!

Angel