Old Testament and Depravity

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One thing that’s great about being Catholic is that we don’t have to continually re-live old heresies. We put the smack-down on Marcionism, with its rejection of the Old Testament, in the second century. Case closed. What a relief.
Hi, mercygate!

…sadly, Satan continues to blur the mind and egos of modern man as those heresies continue to resurface under some sort of “enlighten” intellect… Catholics have the Church’s Doctrine which includes the Written and Oral Traditions (Teachings) to guide us away from the poison of the Evil One.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
What you call BIble is a collection of texts, sacred and secular, compiled by the Church. Who is the church to pick and choose what is in there? What about the multitude of sacred writings found? Why aren’t they in the bible?
Here, is a long list of jewish and christian texts.
christianityhijacked.org/references.html
  1. The bible is a collection of texts . . . compiled by the Church. Who is the church to pick and choose . . .?
Who is the Church? and why aren’t other “sacred writings” in the Bible? The answers to those two fundamental questions will change your life. Scripture and the Church attest to one another – not in a merely reciprocal way, as if to say, “The Bible shows us the Church and the Church gives us the Bible” but via the affirmation of the early paper trail and the history of the first Christians. A good place to begin is with this brief treatment of the reliability Scripture.

The short answer to the question, “who is the church to set the canon of Scripture?” is that only the Church from which the New Testament emerged, in which it was written, for whom it was written, would have the discernment to recognize which of the texts were authentic. The criteria used in the 4th century to make these determinations were:
  1. Is this book written by an Apostle or someone closely associated with an Apostle?
  2. Is this book consistent with the teaching of the Church? (note: the Church knew herself before she canonized the NIT.)
  3. Is this book being read in the liturgies of all (or almost all) of the churches? (note: the “home” of Scripture is within the context of Christian worship – in the constitutive act of the Church: the celebration of the Holy Eucharist).
The canon was set in response to the proliferation of “sacred” texts of late origin that arose in heretical sects, of which there were DOZENS even before the close of the second century. Many of the heretical books did not appear until the third century.

Still, the integrity of the Church made it possible to function for 300 years without a closed canon, because there was wide common agreement on which books were “scripture.” Even in the mid-fourth century, however, Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, James, Jude, and Revelation were still in dispute, even in the Church.
 
Hi, Suzanmo!

Should we remove Jesus from the New Testament?

According to your logic He is the worst Christian ever since He not only quoted the Old Testament but He changed some of its theology while remaining deeply immersed in it!

Maran atha!

Angel
He quoted passages from the prophets. Big difference.
He remained deeply immersed in it?!!!
In the eyes of the religious teachers and priests of his time he was clearly a heretic. Why do you think they plotted to get rid of him?
 
He quoted passages from the prophets. Big difference.
He remained deeply immersed in it?!!!
In the eyes of the religious teachers and priests of his time he was clearly a heretic. Why do you think they plotted to get rid of him?
The books of the Prophets are part of the Old Testament which is what Jesus read and quoted from.

Or do you deny what the Holy Scriptures say?

Luke 24:25-27

**25 **The He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?”
27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

You have yet to address the Depravity of the New Testament.

Just a few examples, the woman at the well and her many husbands, the adult adulteress that the crowd wants to stone to death, the Christian that is stoned to death while Saul (who becomes Paul) holds the cloaks of those doing it, God striking down Ananias and Sapphira, and last the graphic depiction of the scourging and crucifixion of Christ.
 
Isn’t the Old Testament the most depraved book ever written?
Lot is raped by his daughters, Jacob’s son sleeps with one of his father’s wives, David kills a soldier to take his wife,solomon had 1000 wives, incests, stonings, murders, etc.

OT and NT are like night and day, OT is one of jews sacred books and their secular history. Why and when did the church decided that it should be part of the bible? Why should the disgusting stories of the jews be part of christian’s holy book?
It gets worse than that. Read about the wanton genocide, supposedly directed by God Himself. Old Testament barbarism is the best argument against literal interpretation of the Bible. It’s obviously the religious literature of an ancient people which relates their sentiments in exaggerated, dramatic terms, employing imagery and language common to those times. Yes…it’s important literature, but it’s neither history nor science.
 
It gets worse than that. Read about the wanton genocide, supposedly directed by God Himself. Old Testament barbarism is the best argument against literal interpretation of the Bible. It’s obviously the religious literature of an ancient people which relates their sentiments in exaggerated, dramatic terms, employing imagery and language common to those times. Yes…it’s important literature, but it’s neither history nor science.
This is not completely true. There is history in the Old Testament, we just need to learn how to pick out what is history and what is not.
 
some of the things I have read in this thread has been well interesting to say the least. One of the worst things I have ever heard my sister said was the old testamesnt is for the jews. However, the old testament cannot be understood without the new testament, and likewise the new testament cannot be understood without the old. And I am not about the prophecies about Jesus, look at the particular institute by Christ such as the Eucharist which sounds pretty familar to the meal Melchizedek, “The King of Salem(peace)” shared with Abram (hint, hint) and so on. Now the butchery and depravity is our depravity whether we are Jews or not. Believe me the other stories from old Babylon and other Empires are far more brutal and depraved. Often times, the Jews of antiquity would intimidate their neighbors literary styles. This is in turn is actually a great tool in Biblical research, for instance Deuteronomy is a near east treaty form that only was common in existence about the middle of the second millenium BC (as opposed to the 7th century BC as the minimalists would like to believe), and actually helps us determine the correct period of a text. Now not everything the ancient Israelites recorded was the act of God when you compare it their neighbors historical record that often mention their gods. We don’t seem to critique their history as much as the Bible though. Now, the question is what is history and what is not, and I guess it is in the purview of the reader and what the archaeological record says (by the way, there is nothing in the Bible from Abraham to the Exile that has been disproven by archaeology, just various interpretations some of which denies an event, but others tend to collobrate with the text, though not in a conventional way). In fact we know positively that the Omrides ruled in the northern kingdom and that in Judah someone who belonged to the House of David was ruling and this was less than a hundred year after David himself, whether are not all the deeds that are ascribed to David are fact or fiction, it shouldn’t deny that there was probably a real King David.

Also, too many read the Bible thinking that the people in it are these great pillars of strength and are perfect, because we are fed a pg version of story then when we read the book we are horrified that God would allow this or use these people looking in our 21th century eyes. The OT is not about God working through perfect people, but God working perfectly through imperfect people. And many times look at the redemptive quality at the story, for instance Jacob was the trickester his whole life, and this life eventually got him in trouble, then he wrestles in God, and the rest of the passage about Jacob indicates that he was pretty much a righteous guy while sons did all their ill deeds to Joseph. Also, it is a good look at us too, how we turn away from God instead of embracing God, we too are children of Israel, and as we speak we embrace false prophets telling us sweet things and graying the skies overhead.
 
Isn’t the Old Testament the most depraved book ever written?
Lot is raped by his daughters, Jacob’s son sleeps with one of his father’s wives, David kills a soldier to take his wife,solomon had 1000 wives, incests, stonings, murders, etc.

OT and NT are like night and day, OT is one of jews sacred books and their secular history. Why and when did the church decided that it should be part of the bible? Why should the disgusting stories of the jews be part of christian’s holy book?

My aren’t we negative! What about the story of David & Goliath? Sampson & Deliah…the 3 men that were put in an oven & didn’t burn? What about the story of Joseph and his brothers…I see stories of God’s faithfulness and forgiveness in spite of ourselves. I guess it is a matter of perspective.
 
He quoted passages from the prophets. Big difference.
Hi, Suzanmo!

So you’re saying that “the prophets” are Sacred Inspired Scrolls but that the rest of the Old Testament is not?

…so when Jesus made a direct reference to Moses’ serpent… He only meant that one passage was OK?

…when He claims that He did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets but to fulfill them… which part of the Old Testament did He claim and which part did He denounce (remember there existed no New Testament during Jesus’ ministry)?

When He spoke of Abraham, Moses, David, Salomon…?

When He told His disciples to listen to the Pharisees (doctors of the Written Traditions–which included the various Old Testament writings) and the Sadducees (doctors of the Oral Traditions–which included a variation of the Pharisees’) but not to imitate them, if Jesus dispensed with the Old Testament why did He command His disciples to listen (play close attention to their teachings) to useless teachers?
He remained deeply immersed in it?!!!
Yes!

…first time we know of it is when He is twelve years old and is found at the Temple discussing the Sacred Writings with the Jewish teachers.

…second most notable time is exactly at the beginning of His public life (ministry); He meets John the Baptist who, recognizing who Jesus truly is, attempts to dispense with Jesus’ Baptism… Jesus reminds him that He must do all that is required of Him.

…then we have His title as the Lamb of God; the High Priest; the King of Israel; the Prophet; the suffering Servant; the Son of man…

…if we remove Genesis from the Bible a huge gash will appear as Jesus would no longer be Seed who will battle and overpower Satan and the Promise would have to be made to other people rather than to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob…
In the eyes of the religious teachers and priests of his time he was clearly a heretic. Why do you think they plotted to get rid of him?
…you are confusing their fear, insecurity and abuse of authority with their reasons for desiring to kill Jesus; you are also forgetting that Jesus challenged not only their authority as ministers of the Sacred Writings but also their livelihood and status within the Jewish culture; it is this latter concern that blinds them to Jesus’ Teachings as He challenges them openly in the Temple and synagogues and during general social gatherings…

Maran atha!

Angel
 
It gets worse than that. Read about the wanton genocide, supposedly directed by God Himself. Old Testament barbarism is the best argument against literal interpretation of the Bible. It’s obviously the religious literature of an ancient people which relates their sentiments in exaggerated, dramatic terms, employing imagery and language common to those times. Yes…it’s important literature, but it’s neither history nor science.
…I don’t think anyone is saying that the Bible is a book (compilation of books) on history or science… conversely, neither is history true depiction of our past nor science the verification of all true facts of Life!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
some of the things I have read in this thread has been well interesting to say the least. One of the worst things I have ever heard my sister said was the old testamesnt is for the jews. However, the old testament cannot be understood without the new testament, and likewise the new testament cannot be understood without the old. And I am not about the prophecies about Jesus, look at the particular institute by Christ such as the Eucharist which sounds pretty familar to the meal Melchizedek, “The King of Salem(peace)” shared with Abram (hint, hint) and so on. Now the butchery and depravity is our depravity whether we are Jews or not. Believe me the other stories from old Babylon and other Empires are far more brutal and depraved. Often times, the Jews of antiquity would intimidate their neighbors literary styles. This is in turn is actually a great tool in Biblical research, for instance Deuteronomy is a near east treaty form that only was common in existence about the middle of the second millenium BC (as opposed to the 7th century BC as the minimalists would like to believe), and actually helps us determine the correct period of a text. Now not everything the ancient Israelites recorded was the act of God when you compare it their neighbors historical record that often mention their gods. We don’t seem to critique their history as much as the Bible though. Now, the question is what is history and what is not, and I guess it is in the purview of the reader and what the archaeological record says (by the way, there is nothing in the Bible from Abraham to the Exile that has been disproven by archaeology, just various interpretations some of which denies an event, but others tend to collobrate with the text, though not in a conventional way). In fact we know positively that the Omrides ruled in the northern kingdom and that in Judah someone who belonged to the House of David was ruling and this was less than a hundred year after David himself, whether are not all the deeds that are ascribed to David are fact or fiction, it shouldn’t deny that there was probably a real King David.

Also, too many read the Bible thinking that the people in it are these great pillars of strength and are perfect, because we are fed a pg version of story then when we read the book we are horrified that God would allow this or use these people looking in our 21th century eyes. The OT is not about God working through perfect people, but God working perfectly through imperfect people. And many times look at the redemptive quality at the story, for instance Jacob was the trickester his whole life, and this life eventually got him in trouble, then he wrestles in God, and the rest of the passage about Jacob indicates that he was pretty much a righteous guy while sons did all their ill deeds to Joseph. Also, it is a good look at us too, how we turn away from God instead of embracing God, we too are children of Israel, and as we speak we embrace false prophets telling us sweet things and graying the skies overhead.
Hi, Sir Anthony!

I concur with you that historical accounts are basically malleable chuncks of knowledge which can be contorted to promote one or another interpretation; I also agree with you that the Jews lived sorrounded by blood-thirsty people whom they had to not only coexist with but, to an extent, decieve…

…my problem is with modernists who with to view history through the 20th and 21th century rose-colored glasses… they speak of the horrors of the Old Testament and refuse to understand that Salvation History must include both the good things done by the people of God and the evil/wicked things they were capable of committing once they lived away from Yahweh God’s Commandments.

Further, what really gets me about the “bleeding-hearts” is that they not only accept the culture of death but, at times (when it is convenient), embrace it in the name of “intellect” and “modernism;” they are so thick that they cannot comprehend that killing babies in their mothers’ wombs as a means to contracept is as bad as bashing a baby’s head in an offering to a pagan god; they imagine Biblical violence as the worse thing man can do while accepting the harvesting of babies parts (a multibillion dollar industry) as necessary for the survival of the human species.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
…I don’t think anyone is saying that the Bible is a book (compilation of books) on history or science… conversely, neither is history true depiction of our past nor science the verification of all true facts of Life!

Maran atha!

Angel
👍
 
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