Old Testament Angels doing weird things

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waterdog

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Is there a passage in the OT that talks about angels fornicating with humans?
I admit that my knowledge of the NT is much more complete than my knowledge of the OT. I should have just kept my mouth shut instead of getting involved in the following conversation. Someone please, point me to a comprehensive resource that discusses the difficult passages in the OT so I can educate myself and not come out sounding like a moron as in the following…

Other student: (in discussing a literature piece) Well the thing with women wearing their hair up is from the Bible
Me: Yes, it is. The women who wore their hair down in New Testament times were advertising themselves as whores
Other Student: NO actually it was to keep angels from coming down and grabbing them by the hair
Me: That’s not biblical
Other Student: Yes it is
Me: no its not.
Other Student: Yes. Its in Genesis or something. The angels were coming down and fornicating with the women.
Me No I don’t think so
Other student: Have you read the old Testament?
Me: Well I have read Genesis
Other: Well, maybe its not in Genesis. But its in there.
 
Hiyas:)
waterdog said:
Is there a passage in the OT that talks about angels fornicating with humans?
I admit that my knowledge of the NT is much more complete than my knowledge of the OT. I should have just kept my mouth shut instead of getting involved in the following conversation. Someone please, point me to a comprehensive resource that discusses the difficult passages in the OT so I can educate myself and not come out sounding like a moron as in the following…

Other student: (in discussing a literature piece) Well the thing with women wearing their hair up is from the Bible
Me: Yes, it is. The women who wore their hair down in New Testament times were advertising themselves as whores
Other Student: NO actually it was to keep angels from coming down and grabbing them by the hair
Me: That’s not biblical
Other Student: Yes it is
Me: no its not.
Other Student: Yes. Its in Genesis or something. The angels were coming down and fornicating with the women.
Me No I don’t think so
Other student: Have you read the old Testament?
Me: Well I have read Genesis
Other: Well, maybe its not in Genesis. But its in there.
Click to expand...
Then logic dictates THEY produce the evidence to their claim.
This is logic and it’s laws at work.

I hope this helps
 
Is this individual garbling the story of Sodom and Gomorrah? The angels come down, and the man offers his daughters in their place to the men who want to have sex with the angels?

Or maybe they are referring to the Nihilim of Gen 6:4:

“The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterwards-when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them.”
 
No, it can be “misunderstood” to come from Genesis, chapter 6, verses 1 & 2.

When men began to multiply on earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of heaven saw how beautiful the daughters of man were, and so they took for their wives as many of them as they chose.

Agape Bible Study.Com explains that The “sons of God*” referred to fallen angels was an interpretation favored by Jewish scholars (1 Enoch, 6:1-7) and by some early Church Fathers like St. Clement of Alexandria.** However, this interpretation was contradicted by Jesus in Matthew 22:30* and in Genesis 6:3 these men are clearly defined as men of “flesh*.”*
 
dnu said:
Is this individual garbling the story of Sodom and Gomorrah? The angels come down, and the man offers his daughters in their place to the men who want to have sex with the angels?

Or maybe they are referring to the Nihilim of Gen 6:4:

“The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterwards-when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them.”
Click to expand...
Yes, this is part of the mis-reading of Genesis. Jesus refutes this in Matthew’s Gospel.

In Matthew 22:30, Jesus said: For at the resurrection men and women do not marry; no, they are like the angels in heaven*. *Angels are only spirit beings. They do not have a physical form and they do not procreate.
 
waterdog said:
Other student: (in discussing a literature piece) Well the thing with women wearing their hair up is from the Bible
Me: Yes, it is. The women who wore their hair down in New Testament times were advertising themselves as whores
Other Student: NO actually it was to keep angels from coming down and grabbing them by the hair
Me: That’s not biblical
Other Student: Yes it is
Me: no its not.
Click to expand...
dunno if this is what Other-Student was referring to 🤷

1 Corinthians 11
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
 
waterdog said:
Is there a passage in the OT that talks about angels fornicating with humans?
I admit that my knowledge of the NT is much more complete than my knowledge of the OT. I should have just kept my mouth shut instead of getting involved in the following conversation. Someone please, point me to a comprehensive resource that discusses the difficult passages in the OT so I can educate myself and not come out sounding like a moron as in the following…

Other student: (in discussing a literature piece) Well the thing with women wearing their hair up is from the Bible
Me: Yes, it is. The women who wore their hair down in New Testament times were advertising themselves as whores
Other Student: NO actually it was to keep angels from coming down and grabbing them by the hair
Me: That’s not biblical
Other Student: Yes it is
Me: no its not.
Other Student: Yes. Its in Genesis or something. The angels were coming down and fornicating with the women.
Me No I don’t think so
Other student: Have you read the old Testament?
Me: Well I have read Genesis
Other: Well, maybe its not in Genesis. But its in there.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a kid’s argument to me! 😉

Seriously, there is nothing in the book of Genesis that even comes close to this. It revolves around the verses from Genesis 6:1-4:

***"When men began to multiply on earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of heaven saw how beautiful the daughters of man were, and so they took for their wives as many of them as they chose.

Then the LORD said: “My spirit shall not remain in man forever, since he is but flesh. His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years.”

At that time the Nephilim appeared on earth (as well as later), after the sons of heaven had intercourse with the daughters of man, who bore them sons. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown." ***

The “sons of heaven” are not angels; but they were the celestial beings of mythology. It was incorporated into the text to partly explain who the Nephilim were - a very tall race of human beings (giants) who lived in the Palestine area for probably a thousand years. There is some archaeological evidence that these ‘tall’ people were the ancestors of the Maasai and Mandinka (Mandingos) tribes who now live in Kenya and Tanzania. The historian Pliny the Elder wrote of a very tall tribe that existed in Ethiopia. In both the Maasai and Mankinka tribes, women can get as tall as 6 feet, and the men close to 7 and 8 feet tall. Compared to Semites, who were 5-to-5.5 freet tall at the time, these guys were huge! Goliath could have been one of the tribal ancestors. Or, there is also a medical condition of people growing to giant size because of a pituitary dysfunction.

By the way, angels are from another part of creation entirely. They are spiritual beings that have no human body and are sexless. They cannot have intercourse with human beings on the earth.
 
Hi,
In days of old this is a much debated topic.

Enoch (pbuh) is the father of Noah (pbuh) it is said (in this school of understanding) probably where the person you are talking with is coming from that in Enochs (pbuh) time there are angelic beings that defied G-d and descended of their own will.

It is said the reason for their turning from G-d is because they found the daughters of men attractive and together with them produced offspring.

The beings that chose to desend are often called watchers or archons depending what religion you are. they taught men some mystery’s of the universe i guess science, horoscopes and magic.

Their descendants are the Nephilim from a today bible they should have been wiped out in the flood.

But coming from above there sprits influence may no be ended until the last days of this realm we see. If you drift to Islam and pagan Arabia you may see them as Jinn or genii.

In Islamic religion some re submit and some do not.

I ponder G-ds use of their spiritual influence on the Magi.

I listen once to a Jewish woman (unfortunately i cant recall the sect) she wore a wig to cover her hair.
Christian women are called to wear head covering in prayer assuming they see the bible as G-ds instruction to man.
The great apostle Paul (pbuh) was Jewish and it his teaching women do this. Islamic women are encouraged to Vail their hair.

Three monotheistic religions all called to the same call.

Of course lots of us today pick and choose from the books to make a god that suites us in our society.

In western pagan society women do all sorts of things to their to denounce or “improve” what G-d has given them. this lack of acceptance of what G-d gives IMO chimes the descent of the watchers influence.

I dont offer this post with any authority to speak of truth so please dont any one start debate with me but i have personally sought this from prayer inspiration so am happy to discuss further. Please also remember i am running of memory for things that are not key importance in my Fathers calling to me.

My approach to the conversation with your friend would have been an eager please teach me of this you say approach. You could have both sat down and read together. This may have even opened a door for you to share some of scripture that really speaks to you. This in turn would have given you a common sharing to take this person to Our Father in prayer as Yeshua (pbwh) taught.

I avoid your wrong i am right in my personal contacts with people at times, i prefer to share and let G-d show us who is right and who is wrong. G-d knows best. Not to be against you but i get from your post you were not sure of your no.

For me personnel the book of Enoch (pbuh) was helpful in understanding people and the world around me. (Our Father is not constrained by time as we see it) i did not read it with an eye it is G-ds authoritative word but to seek what is of it G-ds word. But that is how i read all writings.

Bless you all pray well and stay well.
 
Sex with angels? Depends upon your definition of “Nephilim”, Genesis 6, (some have them as offspring of angels and fair maidens)
 
NotWorthy said:
No, it can be “misunderstood” to come from Genesis, chapter 6, verses 1 & 2.

When men began to multiply on earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of heaven saw how beautiful the daughters of man were, and so they took for their wives as many of them as they chose.

Agape Bible Study.Com explains that The “sons of God*” referred to fallen angels was an interpretation favored by Jewish scholars (1 Enoch, 6:1-7) and by some early Church Fathers like St. Clement of Alexandria.** However, this interpretation was contradicted by Jesus in Matthew 22:30* and in Genesis 6:3 these men are clearly defined as men of “flesh*.”*
Click to expand...
Matthew 22:30 says “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels*** in heaven***” The fallen angels were cast down to earth from heaven. Genesis 6:3 says “My spirit shall not abide in ***mortals ***forever, for they are flesh…” He was not referring to the fallen angels or nephilim here but to humans. Genesis 6:4 says that the Nephilim were the offspring of the “sons of God” and the “daughters of humans”. A distinction is made here.
 
Susan_Maria said:
Matthew 22:30 says “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels*** in heaven***” The fallen angels were cast down to earth from heaven. Genesis 6:3 says “My spirit shall not abide in ***mortals ***forever, for they are flesh…” He was not referring to the fallen angels or nephilim here but to humans. Genesis 6:4 says that the Nephilim were the offspring of the “sons of God” and the “daughters of humans”. A distinction is made here.
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But when an angel falls, does it change its species? If an angel can’t procreate in its heavenly state, how does it procreate in a fallen state?
 
NotWorthy said:
But when an angel falls, does it change its species? If an angel can’t procreate in its heavenly state, how does it procreate in a fallen state?
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My point here is that the reference was to angels in heaven rather than on the earth. The angels that were cast down to earth rebelled against God and continued to behave contrary to Gods will. To them procreating with humans would have been another way to rebel against God along with teaching humans black arts etc. The fallen angels were still supernatural beings and so perhaps had the power to create offspring just as Mary was able to conceive Our Lord by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Also we are told in Genesis that we are made in the image and likeness of God. To me that doesnt preclude the ability of a supernatural being to procreate.
 
Susan_Maria said:
My point here is that the reference was to angels in heaven rather than on the earth. The angels that were cast down to earth rebelled against God and continued to behave contrary to Gods will. To them procreating with humans would have been another way to rebel against God along with teaching humans black arts etc. The fallen angels were still supernatural beings and so perhaps had the power to create offspring just as Mary was able to conceive Our Lord by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Also we are told in Genesis that we are made in the image and likeness of God. To me that doesnt preclude the ability of a supernatural being to procreate.
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I think you are stretching it. Angels and humans cannot pro-create because they are cross-species. A fallen angel does not change its species simply because it rebelled, so in my opinion, a fallen angel could not conceive a child with a human.

I believe that this is also what the Church teaches.
 
peary1 said:
Sounds like a kid’s argument to me! 😉

Seriously, there is nothing in the book of Genesis that even comes close to this. It revolves around the verses from Genesis 6:1-4:

***"When men began to multiply on earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of heaven saw how beautiful the daughters of man were, and so they took for their wives as many of them as they chose.

Then the LORD said: “My spirit shall not remain in man forever, since he is but flesh. His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years.”

At that time the Nephilim appeared on earth (as well as later), after the sons of heaven had intercourse with the daughters of man, who bore them sons. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown." ***

The “sons of heaven” are not angels; but they were the celestial beings of mythology. It was incorporated into the text to partly explain who the Nephilim were - a very tall race of human beings (giants) who lived in the Palestine area for probably a thousand years. There is some archaeological evidence that these ‘tall’ people were the ancestors of the Maasai and Mandinka (Mandingos) tribes who now live in Kenya and Tanzania. The historian Pliny the Elder wrote of a very tall tribe that existed in Ethiopia. In both the Maasai and Mankinka tribes, women can get as tall as 6 feet, and the men close to 7 and 8 feet tall. Compared to Semites, who were 5-to-5.5 freet tall at the time, these guys were huge! Goliath could have been one of the tribal ancestors. Or, there is also a medical condition of people growing to giant size because of a pituitary dysfunction.

By the way, angels are from another part of creation entirely. They are spiritual beings that have no human body and are sexless. They cannot have intercourse with human beings on the earth.
Click to expand...
your comments are somewhat “off” in description and explanation. The “Angels” that appeared to Abraham and his nephew Lot right before Sodom was destroyed (Gen 19) consumed food, spoke, and touched (grabbed Lot to pull him back into house) so they were not “just” spiritual beings. This was definitely a supernatural event. What mere “spirits” eat food?
 
NotWorthy said:
I think you are stretching it. Angels and humans cannot pro-create because they are cross-species. A fallen angel does not change its species simply because it rebelled, so in my opinion, a fallen angel could not conceive a child with a human.

I believe that this is also what the Church teaches.
Click to expand...
I did not say that the fallen angel changed its species. The fallen angels purposely engaged in behaviour that was contrary to God’s will. If the two angels who appeared with Our Lord in Genesis 18 could walk, talk, eat and drink, why is it not possible for them to procreate?

I’m not sure what the Church teaches. I’m more interested in what the Bible says.
 
jofo817 said:
your comments are somewhat “off” in description and explanation. The “Angels” that appeared to Abraham and his nephew Lot right before Sodom was destroyed (Gen 19) consumed food, spoke, and touched (grabbed Lot to pull him back into house) so they were not “just” spiritual beings. This was definitely a supernatural event. What mere “spirits” eat food?
Click to expand...
I agree.
 
Nkay…I believe that there may be many possible meanings to these references to Angels having sexual congress with women—but I just don’t think that we have any way of understanding what the context of these stories might have been. They seem more like “urban legends” that might have been passed around by some in the time period concerning Sodom and Gomorah. What also occurs to me is: In the Eastern Rite, the Troparion and Kontokion for Sunday evening and Monday morning honors the angels, and the text from the Typicon reads: “Oh ye venerable, non-corporeal bodiless powers of heaven who serve as emissaries of Christ Our God, defend us from all the wiles of the evil demons and preserve us blameless before the glorious majesty of The All Holy Trinity with the interecession of The Theotokos”. (Nassar: Divine Services). This refers to the angels as The Venerable, NON CORPOREAL, BODILESS POWERS. This means that the Holy Angels have no physical bodies—though they may present themselves as human for our sake—but are INCORPOREAL. If, then, angels do not have bodies how can they have sexual congress with human women?

Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy upon Me a sinner…

Janine Therese
 
jofo817 said:
your comments are somewhat “off” in description and explanation. The “Angels” that appeared to Abraham and his nephew Lot right before Sodom was destroyed (Gen 19) consumed food, spoke, and touched (grabbed Lot to pull him back into house) so they were not “just” spiritual beings. This was definitely a supernatural event. What mere “spirits” eat food?
Click to expand...
Angels are permitted to appear as human beings when sent by God. They may also perform all of the actions that humans can, if it be God’s Will. If God cloaked them with the appearance of human flesh, then they could also dine.

However, the angels described in Genesis 19 are not angels at all, but is the LORD (one of them as Yahweh), as described in Genesis 18. The other two were messengers who then went on to Sodom. I fail to see where my comments are a bit off on anything. Again, angels belong to a different part of Creation entirely. They do not have bodies, they are sexless and therefore cannot mate with human beings. They are strictly messengers of the Creator, who can choose to manifest them in any way He wishes for our salvation.
 
Sex with demons:
Incubi - male demons
Succubi - female demons

Thousands of stories from different cultures and across time concur.

Our soul is incorporeal - here angels and people can court, meet, get intimate, engage in sexual intercourse and get into lasting relationships for this life and for the life to come.

The demons present themselves as very attractive, and very pleasurable.
 
Susan_Maria said:
I did not say that the fallen angel changed its species. The fallen angels purposely engaged in behaviour that was contrary to God’s will. If the two angels who appeared with Our Lord in Genesis 18 could walk, talk, eat and drink, why is it not possible for them to procreate?

I’m not sure what the Church teaches. I’m more interested in what the Bible says.
Click to expand...
The Bible says to listen to what the Church says…

And in Matthew 23, doesn’t Jesus imply that angels can’t procreate.
 
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