Old Testament Confusion - Need Help

  • Thread starter Thread starter PeteZaHut
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

PeteZaHut

Guest
I have started reading the Old Testament, and I am not getting much out of it. Some of it is hard to get through, like the genealogies and the chapters and chapters of directions for building the meeting tent in Exodus. Somehow, I figure it has a purpose for us to read; why else would God put it in the Bible?

I have a couple questions, but I was also wondering if anyone knew of any sort of online guide I could find for reading the Old Testament?
  1. When the plagues are going on in Exodus, God makes pharaoh obstinate. I know God brings good out of evil, but humans do the evil. Here, it seems like God is directly causing something bad. Can we assume that during those times, the people on Earth who were outside the line of descendants from Adam and Eve were not fully human as were God’s chosen people? It seemed liked they never really had a chance, like the Canaanites that God told the Israelites to drive out and kill. Obviously, they had human bodies, but were they perhaps spiritually likes animals?
  2. Code:
      That night God came to Balaam and said to him, "If these men have come to summon you, you may go with them; yet only on the condition that you do exactly as I tell you."
    So the next morning when Balaam arose, he saddled his ***, and went off with the princes of Moab.

    But now the anger of God flared up at him for going, and the angel of the LORD stationed himself on the road to hinder him as he was riding along on his ***, accompanied by two of his servants.
    -Numbers 22:20-22
It seems like God changes his mind here. I wouldn’t think that would be possible because God is all-knowing. ???

Thanks
 
Read Scott Hahn’s A Father Who Keeps His Promises which explains the overall themes of the Old Testament. It is an easy read.
 
Read Scott Hahn’s A Father Who Keeps His Promises which explains the overall themes of the Old Testament. It is an easy read.
I think therein lies the rub. As you read, perhaps ask yourself WHY this information was put into scripture. Some of it may simply be to give a background to historical events (for example so you know roughly how much time/how many generations passed between two particular events).

Others - such as the measurements of the Temple - if I remember rightly a cubit is roughly a foot, so it gives you some idea of the size and scale of the Temple and how rich and ornate it was. Or Numbers, it gives you an idea of the size of the population of Israel and shows that they were developing into a settled nation with a bureaucracy after 40 years of being a nomadic people.
 
I have a couple questions, but I was also wondering if anyone knew of any sort of online guide I could find for reading the Old Testament?
Try checking out the links at Scott Hahn’s St. Paul Center Web site. Read the links policy at the top for an explanation of the codes used to classify the material. Haydock’s Commentary offers verse by verse commentary from various sources.
  1. When the plagues are going on in Exodus, God makes pharaoh obstinate. I know God brings good out of evil, but humans do the evil. Here, it seems like God is directly causing something bad. Can we assume that during those times, the people on Earth who were outside the line of descendants from Adam and Eve were not fully human as were God’s chosen people? It seemed liked they never really had a chance, like the Canaanites that God told the Israelites to drive out and kill. Obviously, they had human bodies, but were they perhaps spiritually likes animals?
Short answer: No. To have a human body is to be human and to be human is to have a soul. Here are a couple of articles I thought were interesting on the subject of the fate of the Canaanites:

God and the Canaanites

Worshipping a God Who Commanded Genocide

Here is a striking excerpt from the second article:Rather than trying to defend or excuse God when he shocks and offends people, we should be unembarrassed to assert the authority of God over all. Does it offend you that God wanted the Canaanites destroyed? Well, if you don’t love this God, he’ll destroy you, too. He’s not the tame, domesticated, sophisticated God that modern people want to believe in. He is a God whose holiness and sense of justice has moved him to kill millions throughout history. He is a frightening God to those who do not belong to him, and we should not try to remove the fear of God from them by trying to make him acceptable to sinners. They need to see that the issue is not whether or not they can accept God. The issue is whether or not God will accept them. They need to stop judging God and start submitting to him.
  1. Code:
      That night God came to Balaam and said to him, "If these men have come to summon you, you may go with them; yet only on the condition that you do exactly as I tell you."
    So the next morning when Balaam arose, he saddled his ***, and went off with the princes of Moab.

    But now the anger of God flared up at him for going, and the angel of the LORD stationed himself on the road to hinder him as he was riding along on his ***, accompanied by two of his servants.
    -Numbers 22:20-22
It seems like God changes his mind here. I wouldn’t think that would be possible because God is all-knowing. ???
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:That the Divine nature is essentially immutable, or incapable of any internal change, is an obvious corollary from Divine infinity. Changeableness implies the capacity for increase or diminution of perfection, that is, it implies finiteness and imperfection. But God is infinitely perfect and is necessarily what He is.
This does not mean God cannot “change his mind,” especially in reaction to human events or decisions. Otherwise he would be incapable of reacting to our free-will behavior, which would be a limitation. God is outside of time and knows all eventualities including those that would have occurred had we chosen differently.Consider what God says in Jeremiah 18:7–10:

I will suddenly speak against a nation, and against a kingdom, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy it.
If that nation against which I have spoken, shall repent of their evil, I also will repent of the evil that I have thought to do to them.
And I will suddenly speak of a nation and of a kingdom, to build up and plant it.
If it shall do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice: I will repent of the good that I have spoken to do unto it.

As to Balaam, God obviously had some purpose. Here is one explanation: Regarding Numbers 22:19, “I pray you to stay here this night also, that I may know what the Lord will answer me once more.”, Bishop Challoner says:
His [Balaam’s] desiring them to stay, after he had been fully informed already that it was not God’s will he should go, came from the inclination he had to gratify Balac, for the sake of worldly gain. And this perverse disposition God punished by permitting him to go (though not to curse the people as he would willingly have done), and suffering him to fall still deeper and deeper into sin, till he came at last to give that abominable counsel against the people of God, which ended in his own destruction. So sad a thing it is to indulge a passion for money.
By the way, CA, Balaam rode an a s s, not a ***. From the Latin Equus asinus. It’s sad to be seen as so fragile that we need to be protected by robot censorship to this infantile degree.
 
Somehow, I figure it has a purpose for us to read; why else would God put it in the Bible?
For some amazing answers see idontknownuthin.com to see the hidden messages that speak of Christ.
  1. When the plagues are going on in Exodus, God makes pharaoh obstinate. I know God brings good out of evil, but humans do the evil. Here, it seems like God is directly causing something bad. Can we assume that during those times, the people on Earth who were outside the line of descendants from Adam and Eve were not fully human as were God’s chosen people? It seemed liked they never really had a chance, like the Canaanites that God told the Israelites to drive out and kill. Obviously, they had human bodies, but were they perhaps spiritually likes animals?
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

We often think of judgment as being futuristic, but Jesus says it has happened already. The only thing left is the sentencing. Since we are already condemned, God only needs to seal us in that condition to “harden our hearts” as he did with Pharaoh.

When Jesus refused to answer Herod at his trial, it was really Herod who was on trial, and Jesus spoke not, and by his silence condemned Herod.
  1. Code:
      That night God came to Balaam and said to him, "If these men have come to summon you, you may go with them; yet only on the condition that you do exactly as I tell you."
Code:
So the next morning when Balaam arose, he saddled his ***, and went off with the princes of Moab.
Code:
But now the anger of God flared up at him for going, and the angel of the LORD stationed himself on the road to hinder him as he was riding along on his ***, accompanied by two of his servants.
-Numbers 22:20-22
It seems like God changes his mind here. I wouldn’t think that would be possible because God is all-knowing. ???
God wasn’t angry for following the men as instructed. He was angry at the hardness of Balaam’s heart that desired the money enough to counsel the enemies of Israel on how to compromise them with sin.

Balaam kept scheming how to try to oppose God.

And here is a comparison of Balaam’s donkey with John the Baptist.
idontknownuthin.com/wiki/index.php/Shadow:***::Prophet

It will get censored but you know what the stars are.
 
I have started reading the Old Testament, and I am not getting much out of it. Some of it is hard to get through, like the genealogies and the chapters and chapters of directions for building the meeting tent in Exodus. Somehow, I figure it has a purpose for us to read; why else would God put it in the Bible?

I have a couple questions, but I was also wondering if anyone knew of any sort of online guide I could find for reading the Old Testament?
  1. When the plagues are going on in Exodus, God makes pharaoh obstinate. I know God brings good out of evil, but humans do the evil. Here, it seems like God is directly causing something bad. Can we assume that during those times, the people on Earth who were outside the line of descendants from Adam and Eve were not fully human as were God’s chosen people? It seemed liked they never really had a chance, like the Canaanites that God told the Israelites to drive out and kill. Obviously, they had human bodies, but were they perhaps spiritually likes animals?
  2. Code:
      That night God came to Balaam and said to him, "If these men have come to summon you, you may go with them; yet only on the condition that you do exactly as I tell you."
    So the next morning when Balaam arose, he saddled his ***, and went off with the princes of Moab.

    But now the anger of God flared up at him for going, and the angel of the LORD stationed himself on the road to hinder him as he was riding along on his ***, accompanied by two of his servants.
    -Numbers 22:20-22
It seems like God changes his mind here. I wouldn’t think that would be possible because God is all-knowing. ???

Thanks
I’m going to recommend two books -“God said what?” by Ralph and "Reading The Old Testament " by Lawrence Boadt- both are considered classics and you should be able to get it cheap used.
Good Luck- God Bless! It’s really a great adventure.!!🙂
 
I have started reading the Old Testament, and I am not getting much out of it. Some of it is hard to get through, like . . . the chapters and chapters of directions for building the meeting tent in Exodus. Somehow, I figure it has a purpose for us to read; why else would God put it in the Bible?

. . .
  1. When the plagues are going on in Exodus, God makes pharaoh obstinate. I know God brings good out of evil, but humans do the evil. Here, it seems like God is directly causing something bad. . .
Thanks
Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear PeteZaHut:

It seems to me that the detailed understanding of the arrangements in the Tent of Meeting are crucial to understanding the Holy Mass. By making the layout of the Tent clear, and then specifying that the killing of the victim took place at the door, away from the altar, these passages provide the solutions to several common questions about the relationship between the Cross and the Mass. Coupled with the miracles of the multiplication of loaves, this separation of the killing from the offering of the victim makes the Holy Mass intelligible and thoroughly integrates it with the organic development of God’s directions for proper worship under the old and the new law.

As to the question of “God . . . causing something bad,” one must ask, what is meant by “bad” or “good?” As other comments have suggested, one cannot impose a merely human scope on the actions of God and expect to properly judge “good and bad.” This is one of the meanings of Christ’s saying:

“No one patches an old cloak with a piece of unshrunken cloth, for its fullness pulls away from the cloak and the tear gets worse. People do not put new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise the skins burst, the wine spills out, and the skins are ruined. Rather, they pour new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved,” (Matthew (NAB) 9:16-17; see also Mark 2:21-22; and Luke 5:36-38)

One’s ideas must be stretched to accommodate the Gospel; or, rather, one must allow one’s ideas to be stretched by the Gospel as it matures inside one’s heart.

From a secular point of view, one is accustomed to think of death as an inherently bad thing (and in a certain sense it certainly is). However, this is a narrow view focused only on biological life. God cannot take this perspective. He is everlasting; within His lifetime all* fallen men suffer biological death. Further, in His experience all men remain in existence, even after physical death. Hence, God’s standard for “good and bad” cannot be geared toward whether a person physically dies or not.

On the other hand, throughout the Old Testament, from the sin of Adam and throughout all of the events and trials described, heaven was closed to men. God’s will that men live eternally with Him was frustrated by Adam’s decision. No one could be brought to heaven. Thus, in this sense, it was “all bad.” Whether a person died in the womb or at 105, he could not enter heaven – and therefore his death was not “good” in God’s sense.

Now God is also subtle. There are gradations of bad, and He cares about them. In the Old Testament there are people described who, if heaven had been open, would have entered it. Further, there are many people and even whole peoples who would not have entered heaven even if it had been open. Among these peoples virtually all morally responsible persons would have been damned and all children would have been corrupted to damnation, if they had lived to mature in the culture of the people.

So, this is the context of the accounts in the Old Testament: everyone is barred from heaven, some are fitting themselves for hell. The entire gist of the Old Testament is God’s working through history to open the gates of heaven. This is one way of describing God’s definition of “good” in the Old Testament.

Hence, even for those who were killed in the “genocides” ordered by God, since these events furthered the work of opening the gates of heaven, there was a great benefit and no substantial loss. The benefit seems to have been twofold: first, anyone who acted well enough to be admitted to purgation or heaven benefited, because eventually heaven would be opened and they could enter, after Christ’s saving work was completed; second, however, it seems to me that being of service to God’s plan of salvation may have been meritorious for at least some of those killed in a way that made them fit for heaven where otherwise they would have been fit only for hell, and for the rest this merit would make them at least deserving of less punishment in hell. They suffered no substantial loss, because without the work of salvation, all of these people were barred from heaven, whether they died early or late, at the hands of Israel or of old age.

Now this may be confusing because the logic which applied to these people described in the Old Testament is different from the logic which applies now. Now, the work of salvation has been completed, heaven is open, and the way to heaven has been proclaimed. Under the old law, all were barred from heaven, and the measure of good was the furtherance of the work of salvation through history and the limitation of the personal evil committed before one’s death.

Now, however, the measure of good is the service of God and the attainment of heaven. Then it did not matter when one died, since heaven was closed in any case. Now, the longer an evil person lives, the more opportunity he has for repentance and salvation. “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation,” (2 Peter (RSV) 3:14-15; emphasis added).

God’s standard for “good” is the same under both the old and the new law: salvation for as many as will accept it. However, the circumstances before and after the life of Christ are so fundamentally different that the means necessary to serve this goal have taken radically different forms. This requires some reflection to grasp, but the effort helps one to stretch his “wineskin” so that it can accommodate the “more-than-human” scope of the Gospel.

I hope this is helpful.

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner

*I leave the one or two possible exceptions out of consideration, since they do not affect the argument.
 
  1. When the plagues are going on in Exodus, God makes pharaoh obstinate. I know God brings good out of evil, but humans do the evil. Here, it seems like God is directly causing something bad. Can we assume that during those times, the people on Earth who were outside the line of descendants from Adam and Eve were not fully human as were God’s chosen people? It seemed liked they never really had a chance, like the Canaanites that God told the Israelites to drive out and kill. Obviously, they had human bodies, but were they perhaps spiritually likes animals?
OT often seems to present God as playing favorites, being arbitrary, and unreasonable with mankind. Some of early Church heretics thought of God of OT as inferior to NT Christ.

However, what the OT clearly teaches is that God prefers obedience over sacrifice. When the Hebrews failed to obey and keep the commandments … they were punished just as harshly as the gentiles. The Babylonian captivity was no picnic … and the final fall of Jerusalem in 68-70 AD was one of the worst of earthly attrocities. Worse than Hitler’s upon the Jews.

Even in OT … God valued the gentiles who expressed contrition of sins, were law abiding, and served the one true God.

Jesus talked alot of OT gentile peoples who were more obedient than the OT Jews had been. It was the Jews who wanted to be treated as ‘favorites’ … and didn’t desire for the gentiles to be blessed.

Take story of Jonah for example … he got mad at God for giving the gentiles a second chance.

However, even Jesus tells of massive punishment that awaits the disobedient in age to come. The Revelations is very scary and bloody. Clearly war will always be part of man’s future.

People forget that the evil force of satan is the everpresent problem … and until he is destroyed, those who follow him will suffer his ultimate fate.
 
There are lots of good commentaries that you can get, and many here have mentioned several. One of the problems with the OT, is that the Church revised the order of the OT to suit their theological aims. You can probably get an outline of the Jewish original order. This will put the books in a better historical context for you, and you can read somewhat more chronologically. I find that immensely helpful when it comes to the history and prophets. I don’t know if there is a Jewish commentary other than the huge midrashes and such, that help explain the history outlines a bit better.

I personally don’t believe that God makes mistakes or changes his mind. Indications in the scriptures that he does are to me, mere evidence of writiers misunderstandings, not Gods.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top