Old testament divorce

[runningdude]

The old testament allowed for divorce, but did the divorce actually dissolve the marriage, or allow a form of tolerated adultery/polygamy?

Since there were sacraments in the old testament, these were only natural marriages, which to this day can be dissolved in certain circumstances (Pauline/Petrine privilege). Was a similar mechanism responsible for OT divorce?

Or, since there was also no sacrament of reconciliation, and thus no way to forgive adultery if it occurred, was divorce and “remarriage” tolerated in hopes that forgiveness for the resulting adultery would occur after death (when any previous marriage would be dissolved)?

Today, with the sacrament of penance, it is possible to be without sin, thus sin from adultery can be forgiven, thus living in a situation of adultery (an invalid second) would be an affront to the sacrament. However, in the past, would the lack of any means of forgiving adultery lead to a greater acceptance for it, by institutionalizing in the form of a second marriage?

 

[bogeydogg]

The old testament allowed for divorce, but did the divorce actually dissolve the marriage, or allow a form of tolerated adultery/polygamy?

Since there were sacraments in the old testament, these were only natural marriages, which to this day can be dissolved in certain circumstances (Pauline/Petrine privilege). Was a similar mechanism responsible for OT divorce?

Or, since there was also no sacrament of reconciliation, and thus no way to forgive adultery if it occurred, was divorce and “remarriage” tolerated in hopes that forgiveness for the resulting adultery would occur after death (when any previous marriage would be dissolved)?

Today, with the sacrament of penance, it is possible to be without sin, thus sin from adultery can be forgiven, thus living in a situation of adultery (an invalid second) would be an affront to the sacrament. However, in the past, would the lack of any means of forgiving adultery lead to a greater acceptance for it, by institutionalizing in the form of a second marriage?

Of course there was reconciliation. An animal was offered the, the preist sacrificed it and pronounced the forgiveness of God. The many times in the Law when God says if you do thus and so I will forgive your sins and remember them no more do you think He was lying? To effect this God created a priesthood and a liturgy by which the people could actually gain real forgiveness.

Of course all sacrifices in the OT Liturgy looked forward to Christ in the same fashion as our NT LIturgy looks back to Christ, but in the Liturgy is the forgiveness of sin and reconciliation.

Now to divorce, Jesus said Moses allowed divorce because the people were hard of heart and that divorce was never OK. Remember he says that divorce makes a woman an adulteress except in the case of adultery. Well a lot of people have read into this an exception clause for divorce. But if divorce makes us adulters, and we have already committed adultery, then we canot be adulters by divorce because we are already adulterers by action. So it is not an exception at all.

Polygamy was an accepted social practice at the time but observe the households of Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon and ask yourself if these men seemed particularly happy in their marriages or if they had not in fact wrought unmitigated conflict and riot in their own houses because they ignored the LORD’s Law?

Thankfully the Church put an end to this practice and it seems to have fallen out of practice even in the post exilic Judah.

So no I do not think civil divorce ever severs the marriage and yes the Church may grant a ( I forget the exact language but it amounts to a divorce) but I think this is still because of the hardness of our hearts and it is not because of what God wants us to do.

God Bless

 

[thewanderer]

Just for clarification, the Church never grants a ‘divorce’.

The Church will, however, sometimes grant an Annullment. This is very different from a divorce. A divorce is the termination of a marriage. An Annullment is an anouncement by the Church, that, having looked back at the circumstances of a supposed ‘marriage’ it turns out that the marriage was never valid. In otherwords, an Annulment is not just a “Catholic divorce”. Rather it is a statement that, despite what appeared to be the case, the couple in question were never actually validly married.

 

[twf]

Just for clarification, the Church never grants a ‘divorce’.

The Church will, however, sometimes grant an Annullment. This is very different from a divorce. A divorce is the termination of a marriage. An Annullment is an anouncement by the Church, that, having looked back at the circumstances of a supposed ‘marriage’ it turns out that the marriage was never valid. In otherwords, an Annulment is not just a “Catholic divorce”. Rather it is a statement that, despite what appeared to be the case, the couple in question were never actually validly married.

The Church never grants a divorce for a valid sacramental marriage; the Church does, in very rare cases, grant a divorce (that is, dissolves) for natural marriages - see the Pauline and Petrine privileges referenced earlier in this threa.d

 

[Kaninchen]

The old testament allowed for divorce, but did the divorce actually dissolve the marriage, or allow a form of tolerated adultery/polygamy?

Yes, marriage is a contract (ketubah) and contracts could and can be dissolved.

Since there were sacraments in the old testament,

Sacraments?

 

[BlindManWalking]

Yes, marriage is a contract (ketubah) and contracts could and can be dissolved.

Sacraments?

The 7 Sacraments instituted by Christ:

Baptism, Confirmation, Extreme Unction, Marriage, Holy Orders, Reconciliation, and, of course, Holy Communion.

Of course, all of these have Jewish roots.

 

[thewanderer]

The Church never grants a divorce for a valid sacramental marriage; the Church does, in very rare cases, grant a divorce (that is, dissolves) for natural marriages - see the Pauline and Petrine privileges referenced earlier in this threa.d

Thanks for the correction! I was only thinking about sacramental marriages.

 

[Kaninchen]

The 7 Sacraments instituted by Christ:

Baptism, Confirmation, Extreme Unction, Marriage, Holy Orders, Reconciliation, and, of course, Holy Communion.

Of course, all of these have Jewish roots.

The thing is that the concept of ‘sacraments’ is Christian, not Jewish.

 

[runningdude]

The thing is that the concept of ‘sacraments’ is Christian, not Jewish.

Substitute “since there were no sacraments” into the offending clause.

 

[TimothyH]

The existence of the sacraments is objective, apart from our belief in them or concept of them.

The action of God is a reality, not a concept.

The concept of a sacrament is either believed or not believed, is either accepted or not accepted, but the sacraments themselves are not concepts.

The sacraments are objective reality. The action of God is not a concept.

-Tim-

 

[Digitonomy]

The existence of the sacraments is objective, apart from our belief in them or concept of them.

Are you saying that the sacraments existed in Old Testament times, prior to Christ’s institution of them?

 

[bogeydogg]

Are you saying that the sacraments existed in Old Testament times, prior to Christ’s institution of them?

Of course there was liturgy so why would there not be sacraments. Lets see if we can name a few.

Presentation of the first born male as belonging to God and making an offering for him.

Circumcision.

Since they ordained priests there had to be some sort of Holy Orders

They anointed people with oil and prayed for the sick that sounds like Extreme Unction to me.

I know I am forgetting several but that is just a few.

God Bless

 

[Kaninchen]

Of course there was liturgy so why would there not be sacraments.

What makes a ‘sacrament’ a ‘sacrament’ rather than just some liturgy or ‘event’?

 

[BlindManWalking]

What makes a ‘sacrament’ a ‘sacrament’ rather than just some liturgy or ‘event’?

This might help: newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

Passover sacrifice, for example, is a type of Sacrament for the mystery of its efficacy is wholly in God’s hands via the faith of the participant.

Circumcision- what does it profit a baby who becomes a non-believer? Nothing. Even a baptized person can go to Hell.

etc.

 

[Kaninchen]

This might help: newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

Passover sacrifice, for example, is a type of Sacrament for the mystery of its efficacy is wholly in God’s hands via the faith of the participant.

Circumcision- what does it profit a baby who becomes a non-believer? Nothing. Even a baptized person can go to Hell.

etc.

Thanks.

It’s often interesting to see how aspects of Judaism are viewed through an entirely different idea set.

 

[bogeydogg]

What makes a ‘sacrament’ a ‘sacrament’ rather than just some liturgy or ‘event’?

I am saying the liturgy itself cannot exist without sacrament.

NT Forgiveness, Readings, Creed, Homily, Table, Blessing.

OT Praise as we go up to the Temple, Offering, Sacrifice, Forgiveness, Blessing.

There are sacramental elements to the liturgy that without which what ever service we may be attending it cannot be rightly called a liturgy, IMO. Of course I know someone may argue there are all sorts of liturgies, but I think the Liturgy properly is a celebration of what God has done for us and that cannot be properly celebrated without the sacramental elements.

Therefore whether OT or NT there was a Liturgy and therefore there were Sacraments, and by “sacrament” I mean a command from God involving the right and proper worship of His own Self.

God Bless

 

[Kaninchen]

I am saying the liturgy itself cannot exist without sacrament.

. . . .

Therefore whether OT or NT there was a Liturgy and therefore there were Sacraments, and by “sacrament” I mean a command from God involving the right and proper worship of His own Self.

I thought that sacrament involved something to do with the concept of ‘grace’ and ‘sanctification’?

 

[bogeydogg]

I thought that sacrament involved something to do with the concept of ‘grace’ and ‘sanctification’?

And the revelation of God the Jews had, such as it was, was not grace? Was not David sanctified when he repented after having been chastised by the LORD. I think Psalm 51 is the prayer of a sanctified man.

Sacraments are the means by which the promises of God are conveyed to His people. The OT most certainly had these, temporary though they were, and the faithful availed themselves of them to their sanctification. To say otherwise would be to say that no one except the all stars was saved in the OT.

Which is the charge the Calvinists lay against Rome prior to Luther which I don’t believe at all. No the was real liturgy and real sacraments for the truly faithful in the OT I am completely persuaded of this.

God Bless

 

[Kaninchen]

And the revelation of God the Jews had, such as it was, was not grace? Was not David sanctified when he repented after having been chastised by the LORD. I think Psalm 51 is the prayer of a sanctified man.

Sanctified implies ‘set aside for a purpose’ and the Covenant involved that and grace is an action of kindness/love and the Covenant involved that, in that sense I’d agree with you.

To say otherwise would be to say that no one except the all stars was saved in the OT.

Well, that wouldn’t be saying all that much - since we don’t think anybody needs to be ‘saved’ in the Christian sense.

 

[bogeydogg]

Sanctified implies ‘set aside for a purpose’ and the Covenant involved that and grace is an action of kindness/love and the Covenant involved that, in that sense I’d agree with you.

Well, that wouldn’t be saying all that much - since we don’t think anybody needs to be ‘saved’ in the Christian sense.

I am glad we agree that covenant is grace.

I hardly ever read the headers of the person posting so it took me a while to figure your second sentence out. However on that point I will have to respectfully disagree with you. And I hope you know I mean no offense at all when I say that.

But I am curious, how would you define “saved in a Christian sense”? What does that sentence mean to you. I ask because I really want to know.

God Bless