Old testament "experts" please help me

[Loboto-Me]

On another forum I told someone who is anti bible (atheist) to go to the “horse’s mouth” so to speak, by checking out the bible. This was his reply. Would you guys care to disect this reply for me and refute what he’s saying?

"Ask the Orthodox Jews about the Old Testiment? Several books that the Jews feel belong, are NOT in the Bible. Several Books from the NEW Testement were REMOVED by the Catholic Church. You BELEIVE the Catholic Church is the ONLY authority on the Bible. The books in question were part of the ‘bible’ from Christian churches the pre-date the Catrholic Church- The Coptic Church, the Aryan Church(NOTHING to do with the Nazi ‘aryan’ or current day white-supremist), the Celtic Church. Even the Koran includes several of them, along with the ‘standard’ books of the New Testement.

The reason the Catholic NT has more in it then the Protestant NT is the Protestant believe those books were added in error.

O, I understand you point of veiw. You beleive the Catholic Church has existed as a striaght line from St Peter to the present Pope. I don’t. I also believe that Peter played politics to gain control of the early church, forcing others (like Jesus’ brothers) out."

PS: I forgot to mention that he claims to be an ex-Presbytarian deacon who became atheist after he started reading the bible more and more. I’d love to disect his post like he does mine.

 

[snowman10]

Loboto-Me:

On another forum I told someone who is anti bible (atheist) to go to the “horse’s mouth” so to speak, by checking out the bible. This was his reply. Would you guys care to disect this reply for me and refute what he’s saying?

"Ask the Orthodox Jews about the Old Testiment? Several books that the Jews feel belong, are NOT in the Bible. Several Books from the NEW Testement were REMOVED by the Catholic Church. You BELEIVE the Catholic Church is the ONLY authority on the Bible. The books in question were part of the ‘bible’ from Christian churches the pre-date the Catrholic Church- The Coptic Church, the Aryan Church(NOTHING to do with the Nazi ‘aryan’ or current day white-supremist), the Celtic Church. Even the Koran includes several of them, along with the ‘standard’ books of the New Testement.

The reason the Catholic NT has more in it then the Protestant NT is the Protestant believe those books were added in error.

O, I understand you point of veiw. You beleive the Catholic Church has existed as a striaght line from St Peter to the present Pope. I don’t. I also believe that Peter played politics to gain control of the early church, forcing others (like Jesus’ brothers) out."

PS: I forgot to mention that he claims to be an ex-Presbytarian deacon who became atheist after he started reading the bible more and more. I’d love to disect his post like he does mine.

We have the same books that the Jews had. However there were two different canons used by the Jews, the Alexandrian and the Palestinian Canon. The Alexandrian Canon was based on the LXX which was written in Greek and the Palestinian Canon was written in Hebrew. Both were known to have the now debated Deuterocanonical books but since the Church adopted the Alexandrian Canon, we accept the 7 deuterocanonical books as inspired. The LXX goes back very far and is quite valid. Also, do not let this person use the Jewish council at Jamina (spelling?). At this council, around 90 A.D., Jewish leaders got together and settled the Canon of Jewish Scripture AND denied that Christ was the Messiah, so that council should have no sway on Christians since they are not the “fuffilled Jews” that Christians really are. Also not all Jewish leaders were at this council and others went on using the Greek LXX.

The Catholic and Protestant NT have the same exact books so right there he has already lost credibility. It was Luther who wanted to remove some books, such as the “book of straw” James. He also added the word “alone” to Romans. No Canon was ever established before the Church. The Church established a complete Canon by 397 at the Council of Carthage. This is well documented. To even compare the Bible to the Koran is ridiculous. The two religions stem from Abraham, this is true. But you cannot compare the Bible to the Koran. Period. It seems as if he is trying to tie the two together when in reality they are two seperate entities. The Catholic Church does not acknowledge Mohammed so they certainly will not acknowledge the Koran and its validity or lack thereof. This guy seems to be either telling half-truths to confuse you or he is just outright lying and making his info up. Either ignore him or do some research and kick his butt, theologically and historically speaking. His remark about Peter trying to gain power is nothing but invalid and ridiculous speculation. Since he is saying goto the Bible for info, ask him to show where any of that happens. He may be trying to use Sola Scriptura, so if that comes up just ask him where it says what books should be in the Bible. His arguments are at best, straw.

So use some of this and if anybody sees that I may have made a mistake (I am human) please correct me. Also, I just finished a course in Old Testament so I hope that helps too…haha. Good Luck!

DU

 

[DavidFilmer]

Is he complaining because different religions recognize a different Canon? So what? I can start a religion today and establish my own canon - it doesn’t call the canon of other churches into doubt. Just because there may be disagreement doesn’t mean that SOMEBODY isn’t correct!

I think the heart of this objection, however, goes to his statement

O, I understand you point of veiw. You beleive the Catholic Church has existed as a striaght line from St Peter to the present Pope. I don’t.

If we are correct about this point, then our Canon (and our Church) is correct.

Well, this is a historical question - it can’t be demonstrated Biblically because the Bible doesn’t span a sufficient period of time to show this succession. So he should consider the historical writings of the Early Fathers, who were rather unanimous on this particular point.

Catholic Answers has a tract here that cites historical precident for this doctrine (and note that the tact omits many other supporting citations for sake of brevity - see Jurgens Faith of the Early Fathers Vol 1 for MANY more citations). Find the complete index of tracts regarding the Papacy here. These will also help refute his absurd claim about this so-called power struggle.

 

[Loboto-Me]

I could just KISS you guys! I guess I have some studying to do eh? Anyone want to do my homework for me? LOL

Yes he developed a certain disliking to me because I’m the only catholic on the board that defends her faith anyway. But I am grateful to a born again christian as well as an ex catholic (don’t know what she is now) for defending my faith with me!
This board is teeming with Pagans and Atheists. It’s very tough at times.

If anyone else wants to pipe in here, and continue dissecting this poster, I’d be grateful.