Old Testament Genocide

[Marsha_Adams]

Once it did. Now the Church recognizes that there are many natural explanations for all the things that were once thought of as direct interventions of God.

Since God created nature, even a natural explanation is the recognition of God’s direct intervention in the affairs of men.

 

[patg]

Since God created nature, even a natural explanation is the recognition of God’s direct intervention in the affairs of men.

That is really stertching it and it is far, far different than the beliefs of the people who wrote the scriptures. They believed that if someone was sick or deformed that God was directly punishing them for their sins or the sins of their parents. That if a child in the pharaoh’s household died, that God was directly punishing the Egyptians. If a flood wiped out a town, that God was punishing everyone in it for their sins. The legends of the bible grew out of this sort of interpretation of everyday events and the oral traditions which preserved the stories.

 

[patg]

God cannot do evil, so why do the means need justifying?

There is another way to look at it: God cannot do evil, these acts are evil, therefore, God did not do them - they are a primitive people’s interpretation of events they didn’t understand.

 

[Abbadon]

We’re not worthy to judge God. We are God’s creation and he has a reason for doing everything that he does. When evil is spread from generation to generation, this is God’s way of taking care of it. There wasn’t any righteousness left in Sodom and Gomorrah besides Lot and his family and God destroyed the two cities. God promised he would not destroy the cities if 10 righteous people could were living in the cities. There wasn’t even 10 people. Jericho should have learned from this but its inhabitants continued to live in sin. Again, God took care of the problem.

Even though I feel that destroying a city is an immoral action, considering that it would contain hundreds of innocent children who have yet to reach any potential. Destroying an entire city should be avoided at any cost.

But let us look at the reality of this tale. Why has such an event never occurred again?

 

[Abbadon]

You should study for yourself what the OT says about slavery. First off it was a temporary situation, not a life long condition. Every seven years they were freed during the jubilee. Second, they could redeem themselves. There was even rules about what to do if a slave’s service came to an end but he/she did not want to leave their master. So you cannot equate being a slave in Israel with being a slave in Alabama.

More importantly you cannot judge ancient cultures by today’s standards.

But even more important than that, for finite man to judge infinite God, is absurd in the extreme.

Are you justifying slavery in any context? Honestly are you telling me that slavery is ok? Just say it outright… Is slavery in context okay?

Of course i can judge ancient cultures by today’s standard, of course not technologically or in terms of such advancement they would be compared to their own day. But in terms of how moral a society they were. How they treated their prisoners, how they treat their POW’s etc…

If the jews were allowed to keep slaves by the law of god why were the egyptians not?

And finally like i have said before we already judge god, we judge him by our standards to be good, righteous and loving. When he “heals” the sick or saves us or whatever. So you are already judging god, the only way you could not judge god was if you remained unoppinionated and neutral.

 

[Abbadon]

Have you read Exodus? The Egyptians enslaved the Hebrews for 400 years. The Egyptians were the ones using Genocide. Pharaoh didn’t want the Hebrews “over-populating” so he worked them extremely hard to kill them off. That didn’t work. He then decided to kill all the newborn hebrew males by drowning them in the Nile. God heard the crys of Israel for over 400 years. It was time to free them from bondage.

Whether the jews were actually in egypt of not is highly questionable. Without any actual evidence to support this claim, beside thier own traditional books.

Where did you hear such wild claims about the treatment of slaves in egypt? From memory slavery wasn’t common in egypt so I had a little browse and found this nicely referenced gem.

touregypt.net/featurestories/slaves.htm

Also as I stated in the post above the jews are allowed to keep slaves but the egyptians aren’t? Thats a bit of a double standard…

Does god not hear the prayers and voices of the child labour force that American companies exploit. Where is the freedom of tibet from the rule of the priest class and from the rule of China. Where is the freedom of the North Koreans from the tirant Kim Jon Ill. What about the freedom of many countries as ruled over by religious Islamic theocracies? Where is god today?

 

[RobbyS]

Are you justifying slavery in any context? Honestly are you telling me that slavery is ok? Just say it outright… Is slavery in context okay?

Of course i can judge ancient cultures by today’s standard, of course not technologically or in terms of such advancement they would be compared to their own day. But in terms of how moral a society they were. How they treated their prisoners, how they treat their POW’s etc…

If the jews were allowed to keep slaves by the law of god why were the egyptians not?

And finally like i have said before we already judge god, we judge him by our standards to be good, righteous and loving. When he “heals” the sick or saves us or whatever. So you are already judging god, the only way you could not judge god was if you remained unoppinionated and neutral.

Slavery is with us to this very day, so by what standard do you judge it wrong? As to judging that which we read in the Bible, remember that it is history, written by men informed by the Holy Spirit, but still reading events by the imperfect lights of their own narure and culture. If God’s own people could not recognize the Lord when he came to them, and they did murder him. If the Apostles, men who were willing and able to got to their deaths to spread the Truth were often uncertain of the right thing to DO, and did not always do the right thing, Then that means we are still in ther midst of history and must still work out our salvation in fear and trembling, because perfect clarity will not come until the Resurection. Regarding slavery, Paul’s little message to Philemon says it all. The small seed that Paul planted took many years to grow to the point where we understand what our duty to our fellow men is. Even among the barbarians of Germany, perhaps more so there than in the midst of a civilization with five thousand years of institutionalized slavery, it did not eradicated inequality, but it muted it, by adopting the principal that no baptized person shall be a slave like the slaves of antiquity.

Black slavery was a departure from this principle, and it was this principle that lead to our Civil War. The long-time justification that slavery was inevitable because of the sinfulness of man was not, however, entirely false. Sin leads to injustice, and where we kill one unjust institution , another springs up to replace it. This will not come to an end until both master and the slave have the same heart.

 

[Abbadon]

Slavery is with us to this very day, so by what standard do you judge it wrong? As to judging that which we read in the Bible, remember that it is history, written by men informed by the Holy Spirit, but still reading events by the imperfect lights of their own narure and culture. If God’s own people could not recognize the Lord when he came to them, and they did murder him. If the Apostles, men who were willing and able to got to their deaths to spread the Truth were often uncertain of the right thing to DO, and did not always do the right thing, Then that means we are still in ther midst of history and must still work out our salvation in fear and trembling, because perfect clarity will not come until the Resurection. Regarding slavery, Paul’s little message to Philemon says it all. The small seed that Paul planted took many years to grow to the point where we understand what our duty to our fellow men is. Even among the barbarians of Germany, perhaps more so there than in the midst of a civilization with five thousand years of institutionalized slavery, it did not eradicated inequality, but it muted it, by adopting the principal that no baptized person shall be a slave like the slaves of antiquity.

Black slavery was a departure from this principle, and it was this principle that lead to our Civil War. The long-time justification that slavery was inevitable because of the sinfulness of man was not, however, entirely false. Sin leads to injustice, and where we kill one unjust institution , another springs up to replace it. This will not come to an end until both master and the slave have the same heart.

ALL slavery is wrong, I can’t believe you’re trying to justify slavery. Seriously what is wrong with you, your treating another human bieng in your own house hold as less than you. How can you justify that. Any form of slavery demeans another being. If you are a master and you have a slave you are treating another human bieng as property. You cannot do that, in any well civilized society you cannot treat humans as subhuman. You must do everything you can to not…

 

[RobbyS]

ALL slavery is wrong, I can’t believe you’re trying to justify slavery. Seriously what is wrong with you, your treating another human bieng in your own house hold as less than you. How can you justify that. Any form of slavery demeans another being. If you are a master and you have a slave you are treating another human bieng as property. You cannot do that, in any well civilized society you cannot treat humans as subhuman. You must do everything you can to not…

Who is trying to justify slavery? I simply asked HOW you know it is wrong? But of course, by literal acceptance of Jefferson’s phrase that all men are created equal and endowd with certain inalienable rights. But that itself is derived from the view that all men are equal in Christ. This is itself a perfection of the view that all Jews were equal under the law. Instead of the Law, we now have the law of charity,where all men are equal in Chriust, which however requires God’s grace to establish. As we imperfectly apply this law, we undermine the institution of slavery, but we cannot eradicate, without perfect charity, the basis of the institution. It will come back in one form or another. But it is in opposition to the law of charity, which is what Paul is talking about in Philemon.

 

[Lee_M]

Does god not hear the prayers and voices of the child labour force that American companies exploit. Where is the freedom of tibet from the rule of the priest class and from the rule of China. Where is the freedom of the North Koreans from the tirant Kim Jon Ill. What about the freedom of many countries as ruled over by religious Islamic theocracies? Where is god today?

The Hebrews were wondering where God was when they were slaves for 400 years. There were several generations that never witnessed the deliverer and served in bondage.

As for where God is today, I rely on the on the New Testament to answer my questions.

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land.
Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Abbadon]

Who is trying to justify slavery? I simply asked HOW you know it is wrong? But of course, by literal acceptance of Jefferson’s phrase that all men are created equal and endowd with certain inalienable rights. But that itself is derived from the view that all men are equal in Christ. This is itself a perfection of the view that all Jews were equal under the law. Instead of the Law, we now have the law of charity,where all men are equal in Chriust, which however requires God’s grace to establish. As we imperfectly apply this law, we undermine the institution of slavery, but we cannot eradicate, without perfect charity, the basis of the institution. It will come back in one form or another. But it is in opposition to the law of charity, which is what Paul is talking about in Philemon.

I think that negatively affecting any sentient beings happiness is wrong. And to understand that all you have to do is put your self in their position.

Yes like mentioned before people used the bible to also have slaver removed. But that does not excuse it nor explain how so many people like aforementioned especially in the osuth used the bible to defend slavery.

Okay good to hear you disagree with slavery, for a minute i was worried and thought you were pro slavery. I don’t really understand what you said in the last many lines. For me knowing slavery is wrong has nothing to do with christ but it is to do with understanding another human bieng has emotions hopes and dreams just like me.

Now that we have established slavery is wrong. Let’s go back to slavery laws set forth in Leveticus. Why did it take men like the forefathers of America and other men and women to change slavery. Could god not have set these laws forth in Leveticus? Could god have not spoken such admireable words as Gefferson? Could god not have conviened a Geneva like convention?

 

[Abbadon]

The Hebrews were wondering where God was when they were slaves for 400 years. There were several generations that never witnessed the deliverer and served in bondage.

As for where God is today, I rely on the on the New Testament to answer my questions.

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land.
Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Perhaps some examples of these? I don’t recall meek possesing ny land as governments and a country owns land and have rights to it over the indiividgual.
Overpopulation and as a result world hunger is a big problem.
And all the other things we have no real way of knowing any of them.
I do however agree often with those that mourn one, believing in god, heaven etc… can often be a good comfort, regardless of wheather it is true or not.

But i don’t mean god as in the symbol of something or the essence of the spirit of compassion. I meant in terms of The old Testament god. Writing commandments unto stone tablets. Flooding the world. Smiting cities. Bringing Plagues. Parting seas.

 

[RobbyS]

I think that negatively affecting any sentient beings happiness is wrong. And to understand that all you have to do is put your self in their position.

Yes like mentioned before people used the bible to also have slaver removed. But that does not excuse it nor explain how so many people like aforementioned especially in the osuth used the bible to defend slavery.

Okay good to hear you disagree with slavery, for a minute i was worried and thought you were pro slavery. I don’t really understand what you said in the last many lines. For me knowing slavery is wrong has nothing to do with christ but it is to do with understanding another human bieng has emotions hopes and dreams just like me.

Now that we have established slavery is wrong. Let’s go back to slavery laws set forth in Leveticus. Why did it take men like the forefathers of America and other men and women to change slavery. Could god not have set these laws forth in Leveticus? Could god have not spoken such admireable words as Gefferson? Could god not have conviened a Geneva like convention?

Why do you think that “negatively affecting any sentient beings happiness is wrong?” Is there a rational basis for this feeling you have?

As for the slave laws in Leviticus, let me make clear that I do not believe that the Pentateuch is literally the Word of God in the sense that the Muslims think the Koran is. The Law, I think, is founded on the Covenant between the people of Israel and their God, but in detail, this is a work that codies the relationships among the Israelites, a kind of constitution for the nation that reveals its superiority to the nations around by forbidding some horrendous practices of these peoples and by demanding just treatment by The Israelites of their neighbors (fellow Jews), even those in slavery.

What the Jews have come up with is an improvement sanctioned by their God on the status of slaves. As time wears on, it results in the end of slavery, just as the granting of certain rights to women, ends eventually in the abandonment of polygamy by the Jews. But, in truth, slavery among the Jews was more like indentured slavery under English law, because it had a definite term.

 

[Lee_M]

Perhaps some examples of these? I don’t recall meek possesing ny land as governments and a country owns land and have rights to it over the indiividgual.
Overpopulation and as a result world hunger is a big problem.
And all the other things we have no real way of knowing any of them.
I do however agree often with those that mourn one, believing in god, heaven etc… can often be a good comfort, regardless of wheather it is true or not.

But i don’t mean god as in the symbol of something or the essence of the spirit of compassion. I meant in terms of The old Testament god. Writing commandments unto stone tablets. Flooding the world. Smiting cities. Bringing Plagues. Parting seas.

Jesus didn’t mean the meek were going to possess the land here today. He was talking about the day when they inherit the kingdom of heaven.

To me, the Old Testament God and the New Testament God are the same God. There are several places in the Old Testament where God showed love and compassion. God’s wrath on one man meant salvation for another.

 

[Abbadon]

Why do you think that “negatively affecting any sentient beings happiness is wrong?” Is there a rational basis for this feeling you have?

Well I like to be happy, i don’t like other people making me unhappy and i would assume that other people do not like me making them unhappy. So I try not to hurt nor impose my self on anything sentient.

As for the slave laws in Leviticus, let me make clear that I do not believe that the Pentateuch is literally the Word of God in the sense that the Muslims think the Koran is. The Law, I think, is founded on the Covenant between the people of Israel and their God, but in detail, this is a work that codies the relationships among the Israelites, a kind of constitution for the nation that reveals its superiority to the nations around by forbidding some horrendous practices of these peoples and by demanding just treatment by The Israelites of their neighbors (fellow Jews), even those in slavery.

What the Jews have come up with is an improvement sanctioned by their God on the status of slaves. As time wears on, it results in the end of slavery, just as the granting of certain rights to women, ends eventually in the abandonment of polygamy by the Jews. But, in truth, slavery among the Jews was more like indentured slavery under English law, because it had a definite term.

I’m not really sure I understand. The laws set forth in Levitus are a constitution for isreal. Now why could this constitution not be more like the American one? This is god, he could have commanded a set of laws for the isrealites that would be considered the greatest moral laws for all eternity.I still don’t see the need for slaves? Why could god not remove slavery in Isreal? Do you understand what I’m trying to address that your not adressing? It’s not about a good set of laws for the time. It’s that god should be able to set the ultimate set of moral guidelines that would be unchanged by time.

The slavery is just the main of many points there is also in Deuteronomy 20 (or 22) the conditions for treatment of prisoners of war. How all the women and men should be killed and the virgin women to be taken as your own.

 

[Abbadon]

Jesus didn’t mean the meek were going to possess the land here today. He was talking about the day when they inherit the kingdom of heaven.

To me, the Old Testament God and the New Testament God are the same God. There are several places in the Old Testament where God showed love and compassion. God’s wrath on one man meant salvation for another.

Now that is interesting. For I your god am a jealous god.God is love. How do you reconcile these two charachters?

 

[Lee_M]

Now that is interesting. For I your god am a jealous god.God is love. How do you reconcile these two charachters?

The term “jealous” is used differently than what we’re accustomed to. Our term of jealousy is being envious of someone else for having something that we don’t have. God doesn’t need anything, therefore God is stating that he is a jealous god because he does not want us giving something that belongs to him to someone or something else. He gives us everything we need. God owns. We manage. This does not show that he doesn’t love us. He just doesn’t want us worshipping false idols.

 

[Abbadon]

The term “jealous” is used differently than what we’re accustomed to. Our term of jealousy is being envious of someone else for having something that we don’t have. God doesn’t need anything, therefore God is stating that he is a jealous god because he does not want us giving something that belongs to him to someone or something else. He gives us everything we need. God owns. We manage. This does not show that he doesn’t love us. He just doesn’t want us worshipping false idols.

Right exactly, that sounds like jealousy. He feels we owe him worship, adoration and respect. And he is annoyed? when we do not give it to him but instead to other things.

I have to disagree with god giving us everything we need. If you believe he created the universe and everything in it yes techinically he gave us all the raw materials and potential to make for our selves everything we need. But I don’t recalling god giving the multitude of medical breakthroughs we have today to the isrealites. Nor a brilliant education standard. Nor the ability to feed everyone on earth (give it a few decades).

 

[Pete_1]

I have to disagree with god giving us everything we need. If you believe he created the universe and everything in it yes techinically he gave us all the raw materials and potential to make for our selves everything we need. But I don’t recalling god giving the multitude of medical breakthroughs we have today to the isrealites.

In the beginning Adam and Eve did not need medicine as they were free from all suffering:

[376](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/376.htm’) By the radiance of this grace all dimensions of man’s life were confirmed. As long as he remained in the divine intimacy, man would not have to suffer or die.252 The inner harmony of the human person, the harmony between man and woman,253 and finally the harmony between the first couple and all creation, comprised the state called “original justice”.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p6.htm#375

 

[GKR_LR]

Can’t the pope make it a mortal sin to not use spellchecker - I mean, dear sweet Heaven, to misspell every fourth word makes me wonder if the duly learned “Joe” really learned. I just can’t read those posts after the second misspelling. Pray for one of us please, or both.