Old Testament God

[Valke2]

I certianly don’t make any negative judgement about Jews as a whole, but surely the Old Testament depicts a God who commands a great deal of violence?

There’s plenty of violence in the Torah, yes. But mostly, when they are dealing with collective punishment, it has to do with what can be viewed as violations of zones of holiness. There is a definite correlation between getting close to God and increasing the danger and consequences of mistakes. This is one of the reasons the Jews asked Moses to speak to God and for God, rather than hearing the divine voice directly. They were scared. (and thus came the age of prophets).

 

[Valke2]

You misunderstood my point.

My point is to show that God is not cruel or violent as the OP has thought, especially not without reason.

Comprende?

Not really hard to figure out what is meant by “I won’t be surprised if God annihilates them [the Jews] completely for their unfaithfulness and wickedness”;

Why not just say “I wouldn’t be surprised if God annihilates us for our unfatihfullness and wickedness”?

Comprehende?

 

[AgnosTheist]

There’s plenty of violence in the Torah, yes. But mostly, when they are dealing with collective punishment, it has to do with what can be viewed as violations of zones of holiness…

what do you mean? like how does that work with the genocide of the amalekites?

 

[IvanKaramozov]

Cruel and violent ?

Do you have any idea what the Israelites did time and time and time and time again after what God had done for them ???

One would think why they were chosen to be God’s people in the first place !
They didn’t deserve it !

But because of ONE man’s faithfulness, God had to tolerate them for centuries.

I won’t be surprised if God annihilates them completely for their unfaithfulness and wickedness.

Just read the Book of Jeremiah. You’ll see how God views the Israelites.

For the sake of the whole world, His plan had to be carried out and no obstacle was to stop Him from it and Israel was part of that plan.

Well that’s lovely.

 

[Valke2]

what do you mean? like how does that work with the genocide of the amalekites?

The Amalekites attempted to destroy the Jewish people, by attacking them while they were traveling, first striking at the sick and the weary (Deu. 25:17).

Israel was a consecrated nation and by attacking them, the Amalekites violated a zone of holiness. The Hebrew word “herem” refers to the rule of destroying an individual or community along with his family and possessions. Thus dedicating them to God rather than profiting from their destruction. By completely destroying the Amalekites, the Israelites would not profit from the war (which was traditionally one of the main purposes of battle). THey were completely destroyed for violating a holy zone.

 

[Righteousone]

The Amalekites attempted to destroy the Jewish people, by attacking them while they were traveling, first striking at the sick and the weary (Deu. 25:17).

Israel was a consecrated nation and by attacking them, the Amalekites violated a zone of holiness. The Hebrew word “herem” refers to the rule of destroying an individual or community along with his family and possessions. Thus dedicating them to God rather than profiting from their destruction. By completely destroying the Amalekites, the Israelites would not profit from the war (which was traditionally one of the main purposes of battle). THey were completely destroyed for violating a holy zone.

Just wondering why you always quote how the Jews were attacked…you should really
count the endless Catholic Christians who were ‘attacked’ mercilessly throughout the centuries and still are. Til this day they are being killed everywhere. There were also thousands if not millions killed in the holocaust. Just wanted to point out that Jews aren’t the only ones always being persecuted. Catholics have been and just as many and long as your own people.
People despise Catholics for whatever their reasons, just as well as people despise the Jews and we are all in this together.

 

[Kaninchen]

Just wondering why you always quote how the Jews were attacked…you should really
count the endless Catholic Christians who were ‘attacked’ mercilessly throughout the centuries and still are. Til this day they are being killed everywhere. There were also thousands if not millions killed in the holocaust. Just wanted to point out that Jews aren’t the only ones always being persecuted. Catholics have been and just as many and long as your own people.
People despise Catholics for whatever their reasons, just as well as people despise the Jews and we are all in this together.

Most of the Catholics killed by the Nazis were not killed for being Catholic, they were killed for being Polish (and like most ‘subhuman’ Slavs, ie the ones who were not considered Aryan enough or who were going to be providing slave labor in the Lebensraum of the new Große Reich, they were to be ‘next on the list’ for elimination). The executioners were, of course, their fellow Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox - Germans, Lithuanians, Latvians, Ukrainians etc - they may have been very, very naughty Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox but, nevertheless, that is what they were.

As to the rest of the “endless Catholic Christians who were ‘attacked’ mercilessly” through the ages, you’d have to provide chapter and verse - as to Catholics being killed everywhere, currently, I’ve not noticed any around where I live.

 

[Valke2]

Just wondering why you always quote how the Jews were attacked

I’ve written over 5,000 posts on this forum. I’ve probably written less than three posts that discuss the Jews being attacked, other than general posts regarding persecution in response to particular threads. In this case, Agnos asked me about the reason for the destruction of the Amalkites. I’m surprised that my quoting a battle that took place more than 2,500 years ago (3,000+?) would provoke such a response from you. Just to be clear, I do not blame Christians for the actions of the Almalkites as set forth in Torah and in the Prophets.

…you should really
count the endless Catholic Christians who were ‘attacked’ mercilessly throughout the centuries and still are. Til this day they are being killed everywhere. There were also thousands if not millions killed in the holocaust. Just wanted to point out that Jews aren’t the only ones always being persecuted.

Ok. This doesn’t have anything to do with anything that we were discussing. But you are free to post threads about Catholics being persecuted.

 

[Valke2]

Just wondering why you always quote how the Jews were attacked

I’ve written over 5,000 posts on this forum. I’ve probably written less than three posts that discuss the Jews being attacked, other than general posts regarding persecution in response to particular threads. In this case, Agnos asked me about the reason for the destruction of the Amalkites.

…you should really
count the endless Catholic Christians who were ‘attacked’ mercilessly throughout the centuries and still are. Til this day they are being killed everywhere. There were also thousands if not millions killed in the holocaust. Just wanted to point out that Jews aren’t the only ones always being persecuted.

Ok. This doesn’t have anything to do with anything that we were discussing. But you are free to post threads about Catholics being persecuted.

 

[Valke2]

Just wondering why you always quote how the Jews were attacked

I’ve written over 5,000 posts on this forum. I’ve probably written less than three posts that discuss the Jews being attacked, other than general posts regarding persecution in response to particular threads. In this case, Agnos asked me about the reason for the destruction of the Amalkites.

…you should really
count the endless Catholic Christians who were ‘attacked’ mercilessly throughout the centuries and still are. Til this day they are being killed everywhere. There were also thousands if not millions killed in the holocaust. Just wanted to point out that Jews aren’t the only ones always being persecuted.

Ok. This doesn’t have anything to do with anything that we were discussing. But you are free to post threads about Catholics being persecuted.

 

[Lapell]

Just wondering why you always quote how the Jews were attacked…you should really
count the endless Catholic Christians who were ‘attacked’ mercilessly throughout the centuries and still are. Til this day they are being killed everywhere. There were also thousands if not millions killed in the holocaust. Just wanted to point out that Jews aren’t the only ones always being persecuted. Catholics have been and just as many and long as your own people.
People despise Catholics for whatever their reasons, just as well as people despise the Jews and we are all in this together.

I agree with the last sentence; however, as for the elimination of people by the Nazis, I believe the plan was, since Christianity comes from Judaism, to wipe out all the Jews completely so as to destroy the foundation, then to wipe out the Catholic priests so that the guidance wouldn’t be provided any more, and then the Nazis would feel even freer to wipe out whoever they like, from whatever “undesired” category they would be: homosexuals, Communists, etc. Man, it’s something to be indignant, angry and mad at, that’s for sure… But the Jews were aimed at first, that’s for sure, and with 6 millions deaths, they had not only the greater number but they were the majority, 500, 000 more than the half number of all the deaths. So, I don’t want to minimize the Jews’ claim, they are right: they were aimed at first before anybody else… God love you!

 

[AgnosTheist]

The Amalekites attempted to destroy the Jewish people, by attacking them while they were traveling, first striking at the sick and the weary (Deu. 25:17).

Israel was a consecrated nation and by attacking them, the Amalekites violated a zone of holiness.

But the Egyptians attempted to do worst than that. Actually, they already did a lot worst…slavery & murder. And the only thing they lost was a portion of their army and first born sons. What happened to ‘violating a zone of holiness’.

And remember what you said before, that what fails is the human nature and not the jewish nature. Now put yourself in the shoes of the amalekites. What would make one tribe attack another? More often than not, its because of fear. The jews- an entire nation on the move in the middle of nowhere. What would they eat? where would they settle? The amalekites have very likely feared being attacked and plundered. And struck first. Where they wrong? NO, they were right. The jews did attack peaceful settlements, and stole their lands. And massacred their children.

There were plenty of uninhabited lands south of Egypt. In Africa. Away from being the crossroads of competing empires.

 

[Jerusha]

The NT scriptures which are critical of Jews who did not accept Jesus even as prophet, are actually critical of anyone who would not recognize Jesus, even as prophet, in any age.

The vengeful God, who punishes people in this world for their sins, is countered by the story of Job. The pain and suffering of people who try to live righteous lives, and the lack of justice in this world for those who exploit and sin against others is something that is not dealt with adequately in the OT. The NT deals with that problem better. IMHO.

Valke, what do you say about that?

 

[Aleii]

This is the best and most comprehensive exploration of the “Old Testament God” that I’ve ever read.
jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/02/hard_sayings_of.html

While it was a good read, I continue to have problems with his explanations (except for the one that states it is not to be taken literally). He suggests a “compensation theory” for the suffering of the innocents. Trouble is, it is incompatible that a perfect god would do anything that would require compensating in the first place. I expanded on that more in the comments area of Jimmy’s page.

 

[rinnie]

I think alot of the OT is in the wording too. Like when you see the NT four gospels, some show you the more human side of Jesus, some the more serious side of him. It has alot to do with the Bible and the AUthor. But we know he is a Loving GOd. But i think in the OT its more about teaching right and wrong. More dicipline. In the NT the Softer side of God. In my opinion you see a more forgiving God in the New then the Old. But its still the same message. The commandments are the same. Its just Jesus is revealed to us as Man in the NT.

 

[AgnosTheist]

IBut we know he is a Loving GOd.

But certainly not according to how the bible defines love. The infants who were murdered in the name of God surely suffered intense cruelty, rudeness, and anger. All because of a record of wrongs committed by their grandpas.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

 

[rinnie]

But certainly not according to how the bible defines love. The infants who were murdered in the name of God surely suffered intense cruelty, rudeness, and anger. All because of a record of wrongs committed by their grandpas.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

I guess me and you dont got the same God. My God is a good God, and i know that he will never leave me. And i know that he Loves me and will never leave me. I dont know what planet you are on. But we are from different ones then.

 

[Aleii]

I guess me and you dont got the same God. My God is a good God, and i know that he will never leave me. And i know that he Loves me and will never leave me. I dont know what planet you are on. But we are from different ones then.

You did not address his point about the infants

 

[rinnie]

You did not address his point about the infants

Buddy i could address his point until the cows come home. But instead im going to tell you both a true story. My mother had a uncle and all he did was deny God, his goodness, Said God didnt exist. On his death bed and this is a true story his last words were OH MY GOD. Well guess what alot of that family became believers that day. You can say all you want how God is not merciful. and cruel, you can take scripture and turn it to your benefit all you want. God has the answer to that question, not me. He will be the one to explain it, not me. I know he loves me and i know he has a reason for everything. But why would anyone talk negative about God. thats the big question isnt it?

 

[AgnosTheist]

On his death bed and this is a true story his last words were OH MY GOD.

I know an atheist who keeps saying “JESUS CHRIST!” as his expression.

I heard religious people saying that if you use “Oh my God” as an expression, its blasphemy. That means your grandpa blasphemed your god with his last words.