Old Testament Myths

[grannymh]

Unfortunately that paragraph didn’t answer my question:

What, exactly, was the original sin?

Original Sin was the creature’s act of disobedience.

CCC 396 (post 59) gives the nitty-gritty details.

 

[NonTimendum]

Original Sin was the creature’s act of disobedience.

CCC 396 (post 59) gives the nitty-gritty details.

What, exactly, was that sin of disobedience?

Was it an esoteric fact of human existence, or was it a literal action taken? If it was esoteric fact of human existence than man was created as a sinful being and God has some explaining to do. If it was a literal action taken then who took it and when?

 

[grannymh]

What, exactly, was that sin of disobedience?

Was it an esoteric fact of human existence, or was it a literal action taken? If it was esoteric fact of human existence than man was created as a sinful being and God has some explaining to do. If it was a literal action taken then who took it and when?

Original sin is a literal action taken by the first living human whose nature included intellective free will. It was taken at the dawn of human history.

 

[NonTimendum]

Original sin is a literal action taken by the first living human whose nature included intellective free will. It was taken at the dawn of human history.

What was that literal action? What did he do?

 

[grannymh]

What was that literal action? What did he do?

The literal action can be described as an event. Adam freely disobeyed a specific command given by his Creator.

There is a difference between the first human creature Adam and the Divine Creator. This means that the creature lives in free submission to the Creator. Genesis 2: 15-17 can refer to a specific living tree or it can equally refer to the tree message of an insurmountable limit, that is, the creature cannot become equal to the one and only all-mighty God.

If the first human creature disobeys, that destroys humanity’s relationship with the Divine Creator. The destroyed first relationship results in death, either spiritually or physically or both.

Question. What was that literal action? It is the event of the literal disobedience which is established “at the beginning of the history of man.” (CCC 390)

Divine Revelation, which is properly declared with the wisdom of the promised Holy Spirit during the preparation and participation involved in a major Ecumenical Church Council, gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the event of the Original (disobedience) Sin. The tree supports the reality of Adam’s serious choice to scorn God. And we can view the tree as a reality event that can be described figuratively.

It is easy to complain about the disobedience event. On the other hand, the simple declaration that disobedience is a relationship breaker makes the following human history easier to understand. For example John 3: 16-17

 

[Lion_IRC]

Well that’s just it. What is the point? No real Adam so no real sin. No real Noah so no real covenant. No real Moses so no real chosen people. No real chosen people so no real prophets. No real prophets so no real prophecy. No real prophecy so no real Christ. Jesus was a teacher, a philosopher, a healer…

 

[grannymh]

I bet a dollar to a donut that no one knows what the Science of Human Evolution includes.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Unfortunately that paragraph didn’t answer my question:

What, exactly, was the original sin?

Can you first define what you personally mean by the word “sin” here?

 

[thistle]

Well thanks for all the debate, it has given me a lot to chew on. Since there is no real consensus here I decided to look at the extra-biblical / other than Catholic information out there to see if it would either confirm or deny what we are talking about.

I found nothing really about Job, but I really didn’t look to hard.

The Church’s anti-fundamentalist attitude can be well summed up by Pope Francis’s recent quote that the only thing we are allowed to be fundamentalist about is charity.

Many more pages could be written, and I am sure have been, about whether the Church is left or right leaning, I like to think it is the perfect balance of both but that is simply my opinion.

So we come to the great flood. I found a lot of non-Christian information about the flood. There are many experts who believe that the great flood did not cover the whole world but just mainly the Middle East (more exact geographic boundaries are mentioned but I forgot what they were, its about the Middle East) which would basically be the world to the writers.

There is a great deal of archeological evidence that a great flood happened and even some mass deaths found in the sediment which tell experts of a great flood.

There are multiple other religions and other texts which compliment the Bible’s account of God speaking to a man, telling him how to build a boat and cleansing the world.

My conclusion is that the flood happened, it may not have happened how we in 2017 envision it through the eyes of Hollywood, and the popular movies. It may have been global or it might have been just throughout the Middle East, but it happened.

I would like to point out one other thing that I saw while I was reading the posts above. Someone mentioned Jonah surviving in the “great fish” or what we think of as a whale. The Bible actually says that Jonah died in the belly of the fish and was brought back to life.

Thanks for all the comments so far, God Bless!!!

Whatever we know or don’t know, we do know for a fact that the Church does not teach that there was a global flood that killed everyone (not in the boat) and we do know that Catholics may believe in such a flood or not.

 

[NonTimendum]

The literal action can be described as an event. Adam freely disobeyed a specific command given by his Creator.

There is a difference between the first human creature Adam and the Divine Creator. This means that the creature lives in free submission to the Creator. Genesis 2: 15-17 can refer to a specific living tree or it can equally refer to the tree message of an insurmountable limit, that is, the creature cannot become equal to the one and only all-mighty God.

If the first human creature disobeys, that destroys humanity’s relationship with the Divine Creator. The destroyed first relationship results in death, either spiritually or physically or both.

Question. What was that literal action? It is the event of the literal disobedience which is established “at the beginning of the history of man.” (CCC 390)

Divine Revelation, which is properly declared with the wisdom of the promised Holy Spirit during the preparation and participation involved in a major Ecumenical Church Council, gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the event of the Original (disobedience) Sin. The tree supports the reality of Adam’s serious choice to scorn God. And we can view the tree as a reality event that can be described figuratively.

It is easy to complain about the disobedience event. On the other hand, the simple declaration that disobedience is a relationship breaker makes the following human history easier to understand. For example John 3: 16-17

I’ve seen less dancing in a ballet.

I don’t care about the philosophy and the seventeen thousand word explanation for the metaphysical effect. I want to know in what specific way did he disobey God. If he didn’t eat fruit from a forbidden tree, what was it? Did he beat someone over the head with a rock, did he talk sass when God asked him to do something, what was it?

And did it happen in an evil world with corruption or did it happen in a Garden without death? Not only are you unable to accurately describe the second most important moment in human history, but you’ve also created a whole can of worms here, theologically speaking. Apparently, God created a corrupt world with corrupt man and then punished us for following our nature.

 

[NonTimendum]

Can you first define what you personally mean by the word “sin” here?

Well that gets right to the issue doesn’t it? Start removing truth from the Bible and you’ll quickly find that no one believes in sin anymore.

 

[grannymh]

I’ve seen less dancing in a ballet.

I don’t care about the philosophy and the seventeen thousand word explanation for the metaphysical effect. I want to know in what specific way did he disobey God. If he didn’t eat fruit from a forbidden tree, what was it? Did he beat someone over the head with a rock, did he talk sass when God asked him to do something, what was it?

And did it happen in an evil world with corruption or did it happen in a Garden without death? Not only are you unable to accurately describe the second most important moment in human history, but you’ve also created a whole can of worms here, theologically speaking. Apparently, God created a corrupt world with corrupt man and then punished us for following our nature.

.
It is your choice to accept or reject.

Have a good day!

 

[NonTimendum]

.
It is your choice to accept or reject.

Have a good day!

… wow.

 

[grannymh]

… wow.

You can have the last word.

 

[Tim_D]

I want to know in what specific way did he disobey God. If he didn’t eat fruit from a forbidden tree, what was it?

And here we discover the true meaning of a “myth:” (no matter how much you debate it) "To the source culture a myth by definition is “true”,* in that it embodies beliefs, concepts and ways of questioning to make sense of the world,"** *

Adam’s sin was one of disobedience in seeking his will over God’s will. Isn’t that what every one of us do whenever we sin? The “how” doesn’t matter; the important aspect is that we all share the same characteristic and are totally dependent on Christ’s sacrifice and God’s mercy.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Well that gets right to the issue doesn’t it? Start removing truth from the Bible and you’ll quickly find that no one believes in sin anymore.

Just give me your version of what “sin” is and I will attempt to explain to you the truth of what the Bible has to say re your question .

Of course if you just want to ask us what a bandersnatch is I suppose you may find fault with any answer you get - given we really have no idea what you are quite meaning.

 

[NonTimendum]

Tim_D:

Adam’s sin was one of disobedience in seeking his will over God’s will. Isn’t that what every one of us do whenever we sin? The “how” doesn’t matter; the important aspect is that we all share the same characteristic and are totally dependent on Christ’s sacrifice and God’s mercy.

The “how” is very important. Was Adam a sinful creature from the beginning, created with sin already in his heart? Then his sin was of his own nature and impossible to avoid. If his sin was not of his nature then he must have been different before the sin, possessing a different nature.

Was death, corruption, and sickness all results of sin, or were those in the world from the beginning. Did God then create death and corruption at the start? It’s not good enough to toss out the basis and think nothing changes. That’s all well and good if all you care about is the surface level, but once you’ve changed a huge piece of the story like that, you’ve changed everything and you’ll need to completely rewrite all the theology books. It seems you are all suggesting God created the corrupted world from the beginning. If so, then man was simply acting within his own nature while sinning. Radically different than the Church’s common understanding.

 

[NonTimendum]

Just give me your version of what “sin” is and I will attempt to explain to you the truth of what the Bible has to say re your question .

Of course if you just want to ask us what a bandersnatch is I suppose you may find fault with any answer you get - given we really have no idea what you are quite meaning.

The fact that you find “sin” to be nothing more than a fanciful word with meaning dependent upon personal interpretation speaks volumes as to what this atheistic belief system has wrought.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

The fact that you find “sin” to be nothing more than a fanciful word with meaning dependent upon personal interpretation speaks volumes as to what this atheistic belief system has wrought.

I think you have serious issues my friend.

I have the equiv of a Masters in Theology, go to Mass three times a week and have done so for the last 45 years. My question is attempting to assist you.

The word “sin” is so complex and rich/varied in meaning that your question cannot be satisfactorily responded to until we sort out what meaning you implicitly understand by the word.

Given you are not satisfied to date with the numerous acceptable responses put to you that indicates to me that you have an unusual understanding of the word.

If you approach a discussion unwilling to reveal or address your own confusions and put a bit of “skin” in the game you will come away worse off than you entered.

Which is clearly happening given the rising negative emotion coming from your corner of the room.

 

[PJM]

quote
Originally Posted by NonTimendum View Post
I’ve seen less dancing in a ballet.

I don’t care about the philosophy and the seventeen thousand word explanation for the metaphysical effect. I want to know in what specific way did he disobey God. If he didn’t eat fruit from a forbidden tree, what was it? Did he beat someone over the head with a rock, did he talk sass when God asked him to do something, what was it?

And did it happen in an evil world with corruption or did it happen in a Garden without death? Not only are you unable to accurately describe the second most important moment in human history, but you’ve also created a whole can of worms here, theologically speaking. Apparently, God created a corrupt world with corrupt man and then punished us for following our nature. end quote

.
It is your choice to accept or reject.

Have a good day!

**MY REPLY To: Originally Posted by NonTimendum **

The manner of disobedience in this allegorical account, was not ONLY the disobedience, BUT just as importantly the the circumstances surrounding that personal choice.

GOD had not only CREATED Adam and Eve [could actually be Sam and Sally?], but had given them literally a PERFECT existence,

They had no illness, no discomfort, to unfulfilled WANTS, except one. They like Satan were not GOD.

Genesis 3:3-5
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die. [4] And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death.** [5] For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.**he
The tree and it’s fruit were irrelevant EXCEPT for it being the GOD-TEST {Isaiah 43: 7 & 21}

The Sin was not just “original” in its occurrence [Satan had committed the SAME sin]; but it was the gravity of their choice, having been GIFTED a truly perfect existence, that precipitated God’s necessary response.

It was far more than “just” disobedience!

It was disobedience TIED TOO the desire to be exactly like [as powerful] as GOD that is the REAL issue here… A & E’s choice was a direct attack of the very Sovereignty of the GODHEAD. … This all took place AFTER they had been GIFTED a truly PERFECT existence.

MY friend, I hope this answers your question.

GBY

Patrick