M
Maddalena
Guest
Why is it that we don’t refer to any of the holy people from the Old Testament as saints? o_o
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Tyler_Smedley
Guest
I believe that those who are saints are those who have had faith in Jesus Christ, who wasn’t in the picture before the new testament.
When the Church cannonizes a Saint, they offer up that person as an example to the faithful. Old Testament people while living great lives some of them, didn’t believe in Jesus and rightly so, and the Church wasn’t established yet. Hope that answers your question.
When the Church cannonizes a Saint, they offer up that person as an example to the faithful. Old Testament people while living great lives some of them, didn’t believe in Jesus and rightly so, and the Church wasn’t established yet. Hope that answers your question.
J
James0235
Guest
I believe that it is not uncommon for them to be invoked in the Eastern Churches as St. Moses, St. Elijah, etc.
Also, the Catechism addresses this:
“The patriarchs, prophets, and certain other Old Testament figures have always been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church’s liturgical traditions.” CCC 61
James
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dcmac
Guest
The Oriental Catholic Churches and traditions do call them saints. Further, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, SJ not long ago said on EWTN that these holy men and women are in fact saints and should be referred to as such (I think he too referred to the CCC). Of course, the good father is bi-ritual and a scholar, so one would expect a great answer from him.
Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future priest,
Donnchadh
Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future priest,
Donnchadh
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Unvrsl_Sldr
Guest
Doesn’t Paul refer to them as the great cloud of witnesses in one of his epistles? I think they are saints.
God Bless everyone!
God Bless everyone!
I
Irish_Melkite
Guest
Maddelena,
James is correct. As an example, a few random feasts, drawn from the Synaxarion of the Melkite Catholic Church:
Sept 4 Our Holy Father, the Prophet Moses
June 14 Memory of the Seven Machabee Brothers, with their Mother Salome, and the Elder Eleazar
Nov 19 Memory of the Holy Prophet Abdia
Dec 16 Memory of the Holy Prophet Aggai
Dec 17 Memory of the Holy Prophet Daniel and the Three Youths: Anania, Azaria, and Misael
Commemoration of All the Holy Ancestors of Christ, All the Holy Patriarchs of the Old Testament, All the Holy Prophets, and All Others Who Prefigured or Foretold Christ (this commemoration is observed on the Sunday which falls between Dec 11 and Dec 17)
On this day, we commemorate:
Adam, the first Father; Enoch; Melchisedec; Abraham, the friend of God; Isaac, the fruit of the Promise; and Jacob
The twelve patriarchs, Reuben, Judah, Naphtali, Issachar, Zebulun, Simeon, Daniel, Gad, Asher, Benjamin, Ephraim, and Manasseh.
Those who lived under the Law: Moses; Aaron; Josue; Samuel; and David.
The Prophets: Isaia; Jeremiah; and Ezechiel.
The twelve minor prophets: Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi.
Elia, Eliseus, Zacharia, and John the Baptist.
Joachim, Anna, and The Virgin Mary.
Many years,
Neil
James is correct. As an example, a few random feasts, drawn from the Synaxarion of the Melkite Catholic Church:
Sept 4 Our Holy Father, the Prophet Moses
June 14 Memory of the Seven Machabee Brothers, with their Mother Salome, and the Elder Eleazar
Nov 19 Memory of the Holy Prophet Abdia
Dec 16 Memory of the Holy Prophet Aggai
Dec 17 Memory of the Holy Prophet Daniel and the Three Youths: Anania, Azaria, and Misael
Commemoration of All the Holy Ancestors of Christ, All the Holy Patriarchs of the Old Testament, All the Holy Prophets, and All Others Who Prefigured or Foretold Christ (this commemoration is observed on the Sunday which falls between Dec 11 and Dec 17)
On this day, we commemorate:
Adam, the first Father; Enoch; Melchisedec; Abraham, the friend of God; Isaac, the fruit of the Promise; and Jacob
The twelve patriarchs, Reuben, Judah, Naphtali, Issachar, Zebulun, Simeon, Daniel, Gad, Asher, Benjamin, Ephraim, and Manasseh.
Those who lived under the Law: Moses; Aaron; Josue; Samuel; and David.
The Prophets: Isaia; Jeremiah; and Ezechiel.
The twelve minor prophets: Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi.
Elia, Eliseus, Zacharia, and John the Baptist.
Joachim, Anna, and The Virgin Mary.
Many years,
Neil
A
agname
Guest
There is no requirement(s) for sainthood within the Eastern Orthodox. The Orthodox don’t recognize the authority of the Pope, etc. Anyone who is believed to be “holy”…is considered a saint within the Orthodox faith. This is why Emmerich is known as “Ven. Emmerich” within the Catholic Church…but, Emmerich is known as “St. Emmerich” within the Orthodox.
Moses, etc. aren’t considered “saints”…they’re known as holy prophets.
Understand, saints, are glorified members of Christ’s Mystical Body, that is, the Church, and as such are to be honoured by us and in return are able to help us by their powerful intercession. A saint is a servant of Christ. A saint knows the good news of salvation.
Moses, etc. aren’t considered “saints”…they’re known as holy prophets.
Understand, saints, are glorified members of Christ’s Mystical Body, that is, the Church, and as such are to be honoured by us and in return are able to help us by their powerful intercession. A saint is a servant of Christ. A saint knows the good news of salvation.
I
Irish_Melkite
Guest
Agname,
I know of no Orthodox jurisdiction that deems Anne Catherine Emmerich as a “Saint”. Please provide a citation to something supporting your claim.
Both Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics term and consider the Holy Prophets to be Saints. The following are a sampling of parishes across the US so styled:
St. Elia the Prophet Orthodox Church, Akron, OH - OCA
St. Prophet Elias Greek Orthodox Church, San Bernadino, CA - Diocese of San Francisco/GOA
St. Elias the Prophet Melkite Catholic Church - Brooklyn, OH - Eparchy of Newton/Melkite
St. Elias The Prophet Melkite Greek Catholic Mission - San Jose, CA - Eparchy of Newton/Melkite
Many years,
Neil
A
agname
Guest
Irish Melkite:
Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael…were given honorary Sainthoods.
You will not see other individuals from the OT…receiving sainthood. You will not see a St. Abraham or a St. Noah on the Catholic side.
Who told me about Emmerich? A Greek Orthodox friend over the phone. She could be wrong…but, then again I’ve also heard St. Emmerich by an individual who’s Russian Orthodox.
But, as for the sainthood requirements…I do know…
“CANONIZATION OF SAINTS
The Orthodox Church does not follow any official procedure for the “recognition” of saints. Initially the Church accepted as saints those who had suffered martyrdom for Christ. The saints are saints thanks to the grace of God, and they do not need official ecclesiastical recognition. The Christian people, reading their lives and witnessing their performance of miracles, accept and honor them as saints. St. John Chrysostom, persecuted and exiled by the civil and ecclesiastical authorities, was accepted as a saint of the Church by popular acclaim. St. Basil the Great was accepted immediately after his death as a saint of the Church by the people. Recently, in order to avoid abuses, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has issued special encyclical letters (tomoi) in which the Holy Synod “recognizes” or accepts the popular feelings about a saint. Such an example in our days is St. Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain (1955).”
Moses and Elijah…may have been given a honorary title because they were present at Jesus’s Transfiguration. Most of the time though…you will only hear Holy Prophet X.
Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael…were given honorary Sainthoods.
You will not see other individuals from the OT…receiving sainthood. You will not see a St. Abraham or a St. Noah on the Catholic side.
Who told me about Emmerich? A Greek Orthodox friend over the phone. She could be wrong…but, then again I’ve also heard St. Emmerich by an individual who’s Russian Orthodox.
But, as for the sainthood requirements…I do know…
- The Orthodox only require proof of a holy life…and the Patriarchate makes the final decision.
“CANONIZATION OF SAINTS
The Orthodox Church does not follow any official procedure for the “recognition” of saints. Initially the Church accepted as saints those who had suffered martyrdom for Christ. The saints are saints thanks to the grace of God, and they do not need official ecclesiastical recognition. The Christian people, reading their lives and witnessing their performance of miracles, accept and honor them as saints. St. John Chrysostom, persecuted and exiled by the civil and ecclesiastical authorities, was accepted as a saint of the Church by popular acclaim. St. Basil the Great was accepted immediately after his death as a saint of the Church by the people. Recently, in order to avoid abuses, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has issued special encyclical letters (tomoi) in which the Holy Synod “recognizes” or accepts the popular feelings about a saint. Such an example in our days is St. Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain (1955).”
- For Catholics…it’s a long process…Cardinals appoint a commission and the title of Venerable is given. Then, the next steps are Beatification and Canonization.
A
agname
Guest
Looking through the Saints list for the Roman Catholic Church…I’ve yet to find them…it’s early here…so who knows…might have overlooked their names.
catholic.org/saints/stindex.php?lst=E
catholic-forum.com/saints/indexsnt.htm
Also…remember…there are numerous other Saints who go by the names of St. Moses and St. Elias…could be typos too…who knows.
For instance, I see a few Melkite Church(s)…listed as:
St. Elias Church
8023 Memphis Avenue, Cleveland, OH 44144
St. Elias Church
80 Hamilton Street, Woonsocket, RI 02895
(401) 722-1345
There is a…
St. Elias the Prophet Mission
4411 Hyland Ave.
San Jose, CA 95127
But, they could be borrowing the title from the Orthodox.
catholic.org/saints/stindex.php?lst=E
catholic-forum.com/saints/indexsnt.htm
Also…remember…there are numerous other Saints who go by the names of St. Moses and St. Elias…could be typos too…who knows.
For instance, I see a few Melkite Church(s)…listed as:
St. Elias Church
8023 Memphis Avenue, Cleveland, OH 44144
St. Elias Church
80 Hamilton Street, Woonsocket, RI 02895
(401) 722-1345
There is a…
St. Elias the Prophet Mission
4411 Hyland Ave.
San Jose, CA 95127
But, they could be borrowing the title from the Orthodox.
A
agname
Guest
When I say…“But, they could be borrowing the title from the Orthodox.” I’ve seen Baptists borrow Roman Catholic Saint names for their church…when they don’t even recognize saints…St John the Evangelist Baptist Church, etc. The Melkite Church out in CA…could be doing the same.
A
agname
Guest
Having read some more…
On July 20…the Melkite honor “Holy Prophet Elias the Thesbite.”
The Greek Orthodox honor “Prophet Elijah” on July 20th.
Roman Catholics honor St. Elias (who isn’t the same Elias as the prior two) on July 20.
Melkite:
mliles.com/melkite/prophetelias.shtml
Greek Orthodox:
home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/lives.htm
Roman Catholic:
catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=627
newadvent.org/cathen/05385a.htm
Elias the Prophet is not listed in any of my Roman Catholic Saint reference material. My feeling is that the Melkite Church is borrowing the title from the Orthodox.
On July 20…the Melkite honor “Holy Prophet Elias the Thesbite.”
The Greek Orthodox honor “Prophet Elijah” on July 20th.
Roman Catholics honor St. Elias (who isn’t the same Elias as the prior two) on July 20.
Melkite:
mliles.com/melkite/prophetelias.shtml
Greek Orthodox:
home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/lives.htm
Roman Catholic:
catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=627
newadvent.org/cathen/05385a.htm
Elias the Prophet is not listed in any of my Roman Catholic Saint reference material. My feeling is that the Melkite Church is borrowing the title from the Orthodox.
M
Matt16_18
Guest
agname
Elias the Prophet is not listed in any of my Roman Catholic Saint reference material. My feeling is that the Melkite Church is borrowing the title from the Orthodox.
The Maronite Rite is one of 22 rites within the Catholic Church. There is a St. Elias Maronite Church in Birmingham, Ala.
I have a medal that I obtained and had blessed by a Carmelite priest at the Carmelite Church, Stella Maris, that sits on top of Mt. Carmel in Haifa, Israel, (the Stella Maris is the world wide headquarters of the Carmelites). The medal has and image of St. Elijah holding a raised flaming sword, (no doubt a reference to the slaying of the false prophets at the brook Kishon – a place where the Carmelites also have a monastery).
The rim of my medal has the words, Sancte Elia Ora Pro Me. I have guessed that the translation for that is “Saint Elijah, Pray for Me.”
If anyone could translate, Sancte Elia Ora Pro Me, I would sure appreciate it!
Elias the Prophet is not listed in any of my Roman Catholic Saint reference material. My feeling is that the Melkite Church is borrowing the title from the Orthodox.
The Maronite Rite is one of 22 rites within the Catholic Church. There is a St. Elias Maronite Church in Birmingham, Ala.
I have a medal that I obtained and had blessed by a Carmelite priest at the Carmelite Church, Stella Maris, that sits on top of Mt. Carmel in Haifa, Israel, (the Stella Maris is the world wide headquarters of the Carmelites). The medal has and image of St. Elijah holding a raised flaming sword, (no doubt a reference to the slaying of the false prophets at the brook Kishon – a place where the Carmelites also have a monastery).
The rim of my medal has the words, Sancte Elia Ora Pro Me. I have guessed that the translation for that is “Saint Elijah, Pray for Me.”
If anyone could translate, Sancte Elia Ora Pro Me, I would sure appreciate it!
C
cmom
Guest
D
Della
Guest
agname: Roman Catholics honor St. Elias (who isn’t the same Elias as the prior two) on July 20.
St. Elias the Tishbite is St. Elijah honored by the Carmelite Order as its founder on July 20th. Carmelites also honor St. Elisha, Elijah’s successor, on June 24th. Just FYI!
St. Elias the Tishbite is St. Elijah honored by the Carmelite Order as its founder on July 20th. Carmelites also honor St. Elisha, Elijah’s successor, on June 24th. Just FYI!
A
agname
Guest
cmom said:
There are saints in Judaism…but, not in the same sense (rather… defined) by the Catholic Church. In Judaism, prophets and holy people are honored with shrines, etc.
A
agname
Guest
Della said:agname: Roman Catholics honor St. Elias (who isn’t the same Elias as the prior two) on July 20.
St. Elias the Tishbite is St. Elijah honored by the Carmelite Order as its founder on July 20th. Carmelites also honor St. Elisha, Elijah’s successor, on June 24th. Just FYI!
Yes…please read me post…but, he’s not honored on the same day…or rather any day…by the Church of Rome. I’ve found no record of his canonization by the Church of Rome. My conclusion…is that it’s an honorary title bestowed upon him…by other rites.
A
agname
Guest
Matt16_18 said:
I’m quite aware of the rites…please re-read my post. When I say…“But, they could be borrowing the title from the Orthodox.” I’ve seen Baptists borrow Roman Catholic Saint names for their church…when they don’t even recognize saints…St John the Evangelist Baptist Church, etc. The Melkite Church out in CA…could be doing the same…or, it’s an honorary title bestowed upon him…by other rites.
A
agname
Guest
I was just informed by a priest…that it’s “an honorary title bestowed upon them by Eastern Christians. They have not been through the official canonization process…and will not be canonized by Rome.” Take it for what it’s worth.
D
dcmac
Guest
agname, I will put my trust in Fr. Pacwa, SJ and the CCC and consider them saints thank you very much.
You can’t be too “aware” of the east, for they are not merely “rites” as you state. Rather, a mixture of rites within independent churches united in fidelity to the Throne of Peter. To simply speak of them as “rites” is…not entirely accurate. The Maronites are not the only Oriental Catholics to celebrate the OT saints as saints and these very diverse Oriental Catholics do not share a “common” culture from which to borrow…other than they are eastern and therefore foreign to most Roman Catholics.
Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future priest,
Donnchadh
P.S. Your assertion of “process” for the Roman Church reads a bit arrogant. I pray it be not meant so. However, it wasn’t until modern times that the stringent requirements for sainthood were put into place in the Roman Church. To belittle the Orthodox, and by association, the Oriental Catholics in this manner is not ver charitable.
You can’t be too “aware” of the east, for they are not merely “rites” as you state. Rather, a mixture of rites within independent churches united in fidelity to the Throne of Peter. To simply speak of them as “rites” is…not entirely accurate. The Maronites are not the only Oriental Catholics to celebrate the OT saints as saints and these very diverse Oriental Catholics do not share a “common” culture from which to borrow…other than they are eastern and therefore foreign to most Roman Catholics.
Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future priest,
Donnchadh
P.S. Your assertion of “process” for the Roman Church reads a bit arrogant. I pray it be not meant so. However, it wasn’t until modern times that the stringent requirements for sainthood were put into place in the Roman Church. To belittle the Orthodox, and by association, the Oriental Catholics in this manner is not ver charitable.
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