Old Testament Religion and Problems with Protestantism

[Matariel]

Friends do not believe that our “practice of worship” and mode of governing our Society is carved in stone and “God-ordained” to be perpetuated through it’s ministry…All who seek to live at peace with all men through obedience to the Light Within are in harmony with Friends…whether they “name” themselves “Friends” or not. Friends never intended to be a separate “sect”…just people living in the Light…those who opposed Friends principles…“forced” our organization into a Society of believers…“they were first called Christians in Antioch” is a familiar historical tidbit…we were first called “Quakers” in England. There is only One People of God…

Ich Sehe… so I would be considered a Friend, then, by that definition?

 

[Publisher]

Ich Sehe… so I would be considered a Friend, then, by that definition?

Welcome Friend Matariel

 

[Peter_J]

Judaism was/is based on ritual. Certain rituals in the Hebrew Bible coupled with sacrifice and washings cleanses from sin through the Levitical Priesthood.

Under the New Covenant, Jesus fulfilled the need to engage in rituals and is himself our High Priest, we share in his priesthood. Through his life and work we no longer are under the requirements of the Law to engage in rituals nor do we need someone else acting on our behalf, we can approach the “throne of grace” with boldness…on our own without the aid of priest or minister.

Through Christ we are now a new Nation of Priests baptized into him by his Holy Spirit and made new creations empowered to live lives holy and blameless before God through the work of the Holy Spirit as Jesus is our intercessor.

The veil of the temple was torn into by his death, thus opening the Holy of Holies for all time…no longer requiring a Levitical priest to offer sacrifice on our behalf…it has been offered before the Father by Christ himself.

The scene in the Apocylypse is reminiscent of Jewish apocyliptic literature and not intended to be seen as “lteral”, but was a vision…heavenly events in human words. I’m sure the proto-catholic/orthodox groups who embraced such a vision patterned their worship after Jewish ritual since Christianity came out of Judaism.

As I was reading Matariel’s OP – especially the parts about how Christianity should be sacramental, I thought “I wonder how Quakers would respond”. Then when I saw that you were the first to respond, I thought

 

[Peter_J]

I mean those followers of Jesus that began to organize around certian leaders that taught apostolic succession and an hierarchy of bishops, priests, and deacons…not all who followed Jesus of Nazareth held such beliefs…those that did not hold such beliefs were eventually labeled “heretic” by the group which eventually gained prominence and called itself “cathlolic”.

Like the Arians?

 

[ralphinal]

Curious, what denomination of Protestant were/are you?

I really don’t have an issue with more informal or contemporary services, though its not my style, so long as it gets people to church and conveys the proper message. And while it concerns me to say so, if the historians are correct, Jesus was killed because he was perceived a threat to the very ritual laden services both you and I enjoy, and His Sermon on the Mount sure didn’t include a liturgy.

I got this nagging feeling I might be on the wrong side of the ledger on this one.

I hold with the other historical argument that He was more of a threat to a small group of men who profited from that system. THe money changers, for example.

If you view the Gospels as a whole, they lead up to the ultimate Sacrifice. In fact, they are a mass or ritual of sorts, with the Sermon on the MOunt being the proclomation of the Scriptures.

 

[Rightlydivide]

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.”

So early Christian worship was:

1. The writings of the apostles and prophets are read as long as time permits.
2. The president preaches.
3. Everyone stands up to pray.
4. Bread, wine, and water are brought.
5. The president says unscripted, “according to his ability”, prayers.
6. They eat and drink.

This is from a website but I do not see a lot of what you would call liturgical worship. In fact, what is different from Protestant worship services? Well the wine part but not much else…

 

[jim1130]

These have been helpful in understanding:

St. Justin Martyr – The First Apology of Justin - Chapter LXVI – Of the Euchrarist – “And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.”

St. Justin Martyr – The First Apology of Justin - Chapter LXVII – Weekly Worship of the Christians – “…And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. …But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.”

 

[Matariel]

So early Christian worship was:

1. The writings of the apostles and prophets are read as long as time permits.
2. The president preaches.
3. Everyone stands up to pray.
4. Bread, wine, and water are brought.
5. The president says unscripted, “according to his ability”, prayers.
6. They eat and drink.

This is from a website but I do not see a lot of what you would call liturgical worship. In fact, what is different from Protestant worship services? Well the wine part but not much else…

Look at it closely. It’s the exactly the same as Order of the Mass-- but I guess you wouldn’t know unless you’ve attended a Mass.

And what does it mean, “according to his abilities” does that mean unscripted? And besides, we know the Consecration of the Bread and Wine was always used at the Holy Eucharist in the early Church; regardless, this is not passage I was talking about. There is another passage from Justin Martyr where he describes the sacramental objects used at “the Table of the Lord” at Mass, and the white garments of the deacons and presiding presbyter or bishop. I got to find it.

Also, in Megiddo and in Syria we have the earliest excavations of Christian churches, which a central altar table-- the Lord’s Table, or altar, was always central to Christianity, as was the Holy Eucharist. However, it has largely been discarded by evangelicals, sadly.

I’m not saying that the early Church had a full-blown Tridentine-Rite Mass-- not at all, it was a primitive liturgy, of which the modern Mass organically developed.

But this is not the point of this thread; Let’s get back to statements I put in the o-pee, i.e., God, transcendance, sacral and heirarchichal religion and unity of religion.

 

[ralphinal]

So early Christian worship was:

1. The writings of the apostles and prophets are read as long as time permits.
2. The president preaches.
3. Everyone stands up to pray.
4. Bread, wine, and water are brought.
5. The president says unscripted, “according to his ability”, prayers.
6. They eat and drink.

This is from a website but I do not see a lot of what you would call liturgical worship. In fact, what is different from Protestant worship services? Well the wine part but not much else…

Very much liturgical. There is a formal structure to it. There is a required order. Plus, if you look into the step about the offering of the bread, wine, and water, it is communion. The second Eucharistic prayer (I think it is the second one) dates from this era and is in the Didache.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Very much liturgical. There is a formal structure to it. There is a required order. Plus, if you look into the step about the offering of the bread, wine, and water, it is communion. The second Eucharistic prayer (I think it is the second one) dates from this era and is in the Didache.

So every Christian church is liturgical?
To be precise, this differs how from the Disciples of Christ service? Methodist? MINE?
It does not.

 

[ralphinal]

So every Christian church is liturgical?
To be precise, this differs how from the Disciples of Christ service? Methodist? MINE?
It does not.

Do all of them have a standard order of worship? Is communion done at every service? Is there a prescribed ritual?

You may be correct, but if so, you are correct in that even the non-liturgical denominations are in fact, with some form of liturgy even if they do not want to admit it.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Do all of them have a standard order of worship? Is communion done at every service? Is there a prescribed ritual?

You may be correct, but if so, you are correct in that even the non-liturgical denominations are in fact, with some form of liturgy even if they do not want to admit it.

Yes. Disciples of Christ. Yes, they do that. WE do that. I think we are squabbling over terms perhaps.

 

[ralphinal]

Yes. Disciples of Christ. Yes, they do that. WE do that. I think we are squabbling over terms perhaps.

Perhaps we are. It would not be the first time, nor the last.

If the same pattern is followed every time, then it is, by definition, a ritual.

If a ritual is carried out enough times the same basic way by a denomination overall, it becomes liturgy.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Perhaps we are. It would not be the first time, nor the last.

If the same pattern is followed every time, then it is, by definition, a ritual.

If a ritual is carried out enough times the same basic way by a denomination overall, it becomes liturgy.

I have no problems with your definitions. Very reasonable.
But what I am saying, is that the liturgy described, to use your terms, is so general it applies to almost any Christian church. So Matariel is going to provide an additonal quote from Martyr I believe. I have not read anything like they are talking about.

 

[ralphinal]

I have no problems with your definitions. Very reasonable.
But what I am saying, is that the liturgy described, to use your terms, is so general it applies to almost any Christian church. So Matariel is going to provide an additonal quote from Martyr I believe. I have not read anything like they are talking about.

I will grant you that. I would point out that once communion is removed, it does fall short. I think that you would agree.

 

[Rightlydivide]

I will grant you that. I would point out that once communion is removed, it does fall short. I think that you would agree.

Yes

 

[Matariel]

So every Christian church is liturgical?
To be precise, this differs how from the Disciples of Christ service? Methodist? MINE?
It does not.

Did everyone ignore my post? Do you really think it’s a mere coincidence that the Order of the Mass is exactly the same as what’s described in Justin Martyr’s account, even to the point of people coming forward to distribute Communion to the sick?

Also, you claimed that it sounds like it could be anything, even Protestant. Well, all the Protestant churches I went to it went something like this:

Greeting
Singing
Announcements
Preaching
Sentimental song
Closing prayer

And that was nothing like what Justin Martyr described. Also, we see from Justin’s account that Eucharist was celebrated every Sunday (and of course the early Christians’ belief in the Real Presence-- which would definitely mean they would act reverently at their worship gatherings at least).

At any rate, I can’t find the separate quote I was talking about, so for now you can take it with a grain of pepper. Maybe it was another Church Father?

Anyway, this is not the topic of the öpee. The topic was not “early Christian worship” but “comparing Old Testament Worship, Heavenly Worship (Apocalypse in light of the Mass) and New Testament Worship” and “Unity and heirarchy in Old Testament Judaism and how it jives with the lack of unity and non-heirarchy of some Protestant worldviews”.

Please re-read the öpee and posts relevant to the öpee.

Thank you very much.

 

[Steadfast]

I think we have a tendency to think of “Liturgy” in terms that reflect only a “high” liturgical practice.

In fact, ANY ordered worship is a liturgy.

Helpful or not, it is more accurate to see liturgy as a spectrum with those who hold to a very traditional and formulaic approach on one side and those with an approach incorporating more extemporaneity within an essentially consistent and constant framework.

Baptists are not usually thought of as “Liturgical” and yet, every Sunday, the service will follow the same order, with the same elements in the same places.

This is liturgy.

 

[Publisher]

Even Friends have a “liturgy”…it’s the “liturgy of silence”…each First Day we meet in expectant waiting upon the Light to provide ministry, either “silent” or vocal.

 

[Matariel]

Anyway, this is not the topic of the öpee. The topic was not “early Christian worship” but “comparing Old Testament Worship, Heavenly Worship (Apocalypse in light of the Mass) and New Testament Worship” and “Unity and heirarchy in Old Testament Judaism and how it jives with the lack of unity and non-heirarchy of some Protestant worldviews”.

Please re-read the öpee and posts relevant to the öpee.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much.