Old Testament saints

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There are several Old Testament figures who were taken up into heaven/were alive with God after their deaths–most famously Enoch and Elijah, but also Moses (Lk. 9:30, Jude 9), Jeremiah and Onias, who pray for people like the saints do (II Mc. 15:12-14), and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who were alive even after their deaths (Mt. 22:32)–showing that they died in the state of grace.

I have several questions about this:
  1. Were these people in heaven before the Crucifixion? If so, how? Is it similar to the way in which the Blessed Virgin was preserved from sin “in view” of the salvation brought to us by Christ?
  2. Or were they in the Limbo of the Fathers/“bosom of Abraham”/prison in I Pt. 3:19, where they prayed for the living, just like the “New Covenant saints” in heaven do?
  3. It seems to me that, either way, they’re in heaven now. Has the Church canonized them? Should we refer to “St. Moses”, etc.?
 
Michael929 said:
There are several Old Testament figures who were taken up into heaven/were alive with God after their deaths–most famously Enoch and Elijah, but also Moses (Lk. 9:30, Jude 9), Jeremiah and Onias, who pray for people like the saints do (II Mc. 15:12-14), and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who were alive even after their deaths (Mt. 22:32)–showing that they died in the state of grace.

I have several questions about this:
  1. Were these people in heaven before the Crucifixion? If so, how? Is it similar to the way in which the Blessed Virgin was preserved from sin “in view” of the salvation brought to us by Christ?
  2. Or were they in the Limbo of the Fathers/“bosom of Abraham”/prison in I Pt. 3:19, where they prayed for the living, just like the “New Covenant saints” in heaven do?
  3. It seems to me that, either way, they’re in heaven now. Has the Church canonized them? Should we refer to “St. Moses”, etc.?
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Re whether they were in Heaven before the crucifixion, God operates outside the constraints of time. So, the grace of the cross flows backwards in time – not just forwards. You can even see Christ personally attesting to this in the gospels. In the last sentence of Matthew 16, Christ says, “Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Then, some of the Apostles see Christ in the Transfiguration, standing there with Moses and Elijah. So, the future – the Son of Man coming in glory – was the present for Christ, and the Apostles who accompanied Him to the mountain were allowed to see this.

The Church has canonized many of the Old Testament figures. You may call them “St. Moses,” “St. Enoch,” and so on.
 
I believe it is more traditional in the Eastern Rites to refer to them as St. Moses. I am not aware of any official canonization of these OT figures, but would be happy to see them! I have been known to say if there’s one thing I’d like the Latin Rite to adopt from the Eastern Rites is the use of “Saints” to refer to said OT figures.
 
Michael929 said:
There are several Old Testament figures who were taken up into heaven/were alive with God after their deaths–most famously Enoch and Elijah, but also Moses (Lk. 9:30, Jude 9), Jeremiah and Onias, who pray for people like the saints do (II Mc. 15:12-14), and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who were alive even after their deaths (Mt. 22:32)–showing that they died in the state of grace.

I have several questions about this:
  1. Were these people in heaven before the Crucifixion? If so, how? Is it similar to the way in which the Blessed Virgin was preserved from sin “in view” of the salvation brought to us by Christ?
  2. Or were they in the Limbo of the Fathers/“bosom of Abraham”/prison in I Pt. 3:19, where they prayed for the living, just like the “New Covenant saints” in heaven do?
  3. It seems to me that, either way, they’re in heaven now. Has the Church canonized them? Should we refer to “St. Moses”, etc.?
Click to expand...
Abraham’s bossom. Jesus told us know one had been in heaven (other than him). When Jesus died and was resurrected, he opened up heaven and released OT saints (the righteous) from Abraham’s bossom. Those not so released remain their still until the time of the resurrection in the end times - where we will all (good and bad) be judged.

Blessings,

Brian
 
Hmm, so now we have answers supporting both possibilities 😛 Both possibilities have good points to them – Jesus did say that no one had been in heaven besides Himself, although I can’t find the passage right now. This seems to support more strongly the idea that these ‘Old Testament saints’ were in the bosom of Abraham/limbo of the fathers.

On the other hand, this doesn’t actually rule out the possibility, in theory, of the grace and salvation achieved for us in the Crucifixion being applied before it occured, since this is (as I understand) exactly what the Church believes about the Virgin Mary and her Immaculate Conception.

It’s also nice to know that the Church considers these people saints; I did a bit of research, and it does seem that it’s much more common in Eastern rites to refer to Old Testament figures as saints and celebrate their feast days. I agree with MarcoPolo that this is something that I certainly wouldn’t mind seeing adopted in the Latin Rite.
 
Jesus said no one had ascended into Heaven except the one who descended - himself. But “Ascension” is a self-powered act. Mary didn’t ascend, she was assumed. This is a critical and often over-looked detail. So to for Elijah and the others. Not their choice, not their effort, not their power – only God’s. So to for that fulfillment we each long for - that He will take us to be with Him (John 14), not that we will somehow get there on our own (the error of Babel).
 
Alot of Early Church Fathers agree upon that Elias was taken up to Heaven, as was Enoch and Moses. To me I think that some were taken right to Heaven because of Christ Eternal Sacrfice being applied to all time. While others waited in Abraham’s Bosom. Who knows…, could one argue that those in Abraham’s Bosom were actually being purified(Purgatory)? Spirits in Prison…, could one say they are those who owed a debt of punishment(temporal)? Again this being Purgatory?
 
Michael929 said:
Hmm, so now we have answers supporting both possibilities 😛 Both possibilities have good points to them – Jesus did say that no one had been in heaven besides Himself, although I can’t find the passage right now. This seems to support more strongly the idea that these ‘Old Testament saints’ were in the bosom of Abraham/limbo of the fathers.

On the other hand, this doesn’t actually rule out the possibility, in theory, of the grace and salvation achieved for us in the Crucifixion being applied before it occured, since this is (as I understand) exactly what the Church believes about the Virgin Mary and her Immaculate Conception.

It’s also nice to know that the Church considers these people saints; I did a bit of research, and it does seem that it’s much more common in Eastern rites to refer to Old Testament figures as saints and celebrate their feast days. I agree with MarcoPolo that this is something that I certainly wouldn’t mind seeing adopted in the Latin Rite.
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Go to the last three pages of here: www.kings.uwo.ca/files/file/ccjl/OldTestamentSaints.pdf
 
Church_Militant said:
See if these help. All I did was search the Ask An Apologist forum. 👍

Are there Old Testament saints?
Can I pray to Abraham?
Why isn’t Noah a saint?
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Michele Arnold’s brief piece reads like it is based on Akin’s article, which ends by declaring that everything in his article is speculative.

The current Roman Martyrology last amended in 2005, as far as I know, was generated after much study pursuant to a decree of the Second Vatican Council.

That’s authority enough for me to confer on the Martyrology entitlement to respect as an exercise of the Magisterium. I think that it is in the grey area of Magisterial expressions, where one is philosophically bound to bow to the teaching unless one can come up with a morally compelling reason for skepticism.

An example of a morally compelling reason to doubt the Martyrology would be the realization that not one single verifiable reliable historical source verifies the existence of St. “Christ-Bearer,” “Christo-pher.” So, note that doubts about the correctness of his inclusion in the Martyrology would have been ratified by the 1969 decision to remove him from the calendar of saint’s feast days.

But, note well, though there are doubts about even Moses’ existence, he is sufficiently well-verified to generate a moral compulsion to abide by the decree-promulgated Martyrology.
 
**
Byzman said:
Elias was taken up to Heaven, as was Enoch and Moses.
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Elias was taken up to heaven in his body. Not Enoch nor Moses.
The only one taken bodily into heaven (besides Elijah) was Holy Mary.
Byzman said:
some were taken right to Heaven because of Christ Eternal Sacrifice being applied to all time. While others waited in Abraham’s Bosom.
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Abrahams Bosom is another word for kind of antechamber to heaven. It is not heaven itself. Nobody could get into heaven, before Christ’s salvation.
If Elijah was taken into heaven or “Abrahams Bosom” is not known.
Holy Mary of course was taken into heaven with her body - this was after Jesus’ salvation.
Byzman said:
could one argue that those in Abraham’s Bosom were actually being purified(Purgatory)? Spirits in Prison…, could one say they are those who owed a debt of punishment(temporal)? Again this being Purgatory?
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Definitely no!
Those in or on “Abraham’s Bosom” where Holies that definitely get into heaven, after Jesus’ salvation. Others where in hell, where Jesus Christ’s went into, to tear away off hell those, who could not get into heaven (or purgatory - never mentioned in the Bible) before His salvation. Match the Christian Credo: “He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell.”

This last part seems to have vanished from the latest credo.

A Saint and Holy is everyone living in Gods Kingdom. Not only those on the canon.

**
 
Byzman said:
Alot of Early Church Fathers agree upon that Elias was taken up to Heaven, as was Enoch and Moses. To me I think that some were taken right to Heaven because of Christ Eternal Sacrfice being applied to all time. While others waited in Abraham’s Bosom. Who knows…, could one argue that those in Abraham’s Bosom were actually being purified(Purgatory)? Spirits in Prison…, could one say they are those who owed a debt of punishment(temporal)? Again this being Purgatory?
Click to expand...
Moses was not taken up into heaven. Scripture plainly says that Moses died and that God burried his body in a place where no one could find it. Perhaps he used Michael to do this, as he and Satan were disputing over the body of Moses according to St. Jude.
 
Bruno_Schulz said:
**

Elias was taken up to heaven in his body. Not Enoch nor Moses.
The only one taken bodily into heaven (besides Elijah) was Holy Mary.**
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Enoch according Scripture and the concensus of the Early Church Fathers is that Enoch and also Moses was taken up to Heaven and that he did not see death.

Genesis 5:24 ESV
Enoch walked with God, and he was not,[1] for God took him.
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Bruno_Schulz said:
**
Abrahams Bosom is another word for kind of antechamber to heaven. It is not heaven itself. Nobody could get into heaven, before Christ’s salvation.
If Elijah was taken into heaven or “Abrahams Bosom” is not known.
Holy Mary of course was taken into heaven with her body - this was after Jesus’ salvation.

Definitely no!
Those in or on “Abraham’s Bosom” where Holies that definitely get into heaven, after Jesus’ salvation. Others where in hell, where Jesus Christ’s went into, to tear away off hell those, who could not get into heaven (or purgatory - never mentioned in the Bible) before His salvation. Match the Christian Credo: “He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell.”

This last part seems to have vanished from the latest credo.

A Saint and Holy is everyone living in Gods Kingdom. Not only those on the canon.

**
Click to expand...
Actually a better translation of the Creed is not hell but "He descended into the Dead.

Christ did not save those who were already suffering Eternal Punishment, but he saved those who were waiting.
 
**it’s not a better - it’s the new transation. Before the credo was “He descended into hell.”
Into hell, to show hell who is the Lord above everything, and to get these out (of whatever kind of hell) who where not condemned but just couldn’t get into heaven before Jesus’ salvation.
To Moses etc. see also …Michael and Satan were disputing over the body of Moses according to Jude 1,9.
**
 
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