Old Testament Saints

[Seminarian_Matt]

In addition to this list, are there any other saints from the Old Testament that should be added?

Saint Melchisedech, August 26.
Saint Abraham, October 9.
Saint Moses, September 4.
Saint Joshua, September 1.
Saint Ezra, July 13.
Saint Hosea, October 17.
Saint Obadiah, November 19.
Saint Jonah, September 21.
Saint Elijah, July 20.
Saint Elisha, June 14.
Saint Jeremiah, May 1.
Saint Samuel, August 20.
Saint David, December 29.
Saint Michael and Saint Raphael, September 29.
Saint Isaiah, May 9.
Saint Job, May 10.
Saint Zechariah, September 6.
Saint Joel, October 19.
Saint Amos, June 15.
Saint Ezekiel, July 23.
Saint Nahum, December 1.
Saint Habakkuk, December 2.
Saint Zephaniah, December 3.
Saint Haggai, December 16.
Saint Malachi, December 18.
Saint Micah, December 21.
Adam and Eve, December 24

 

[prayerchanges]

I believe the feast day for St. Gabriel is March 24 :yup:

 

[Cachonga]

Just a couple of quick questions -

1 - Since sin came into the world by Adam (via Eve), what makes you think Adam (and Eve) are “Old Testament Saints”?

2 - How do angels become saints (please give scripture for this “doctrine”)?

 

[Ginger2]

Just a couple of quick questions -

2 - How do angels become saints (please give scripture for this “doctrine”)?

I was just wondering the same thing…Saints in Scripture are human beings who are saved whether in heaven or still on Earth. How do Catholics define angels as saints?

Also, in the case of mandatory veneration, is it considered a mortal sin not to show some sort of veneration toward a saint declared such by the RC?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Note that angels are referred to as Saints in the sense that they are holy beings in Heaven. They do not become Saints in the sense of becoming human. Note that we only have the names of three angels - Michael, Raphael, and Gabriel; so these are the only ones referred to as Saints.

Note that Saint Gabriel’s feast was March 24 in the older calender of the Western Church. In the current calendar he shares September 29 with Saints Michael and Raphael.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Just a couple of quick questions -

1 - Since sin came into the world by Adam (via Eve), what makes you think Adam (and Eve) are “Old Testament Saints”?

2 - How do angels become saints (please give scripture for this “doctrine”)?

1. Adam and Eve are also commemorated on the Byzantine Calendar on the two Sundays before Christmas. Don’t forget they were the first people of spiritual significance.
2. “Saint” is nothing more than the Anglicized form of “Sanctus” (through the Middle English form “sayncte”)–holy. In Latin, you say “Sanctus Archangelus Michael” as well as “Sanctus Joseph.” Most Romance languges use their congnates. German uses “Heilig”, “Agios/a”, and Slavonic “Sviat/i”–all meaning “holy”-- in exactly the same way.

Please give Scriptural support for the unscriptural “doctrine” of Sola Scriptura.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I was just wondering the same thing…Saints in Scripture are human beings who are saved whether in heaven or still on Earth. How do Catholics define angels as saints?

Also, in the case of mandatory veneration, is it considered a mortal sin not to show some sort of veneration toward a saint declared such by the RC?

We are all called to be holy (meaning of “saint”). Those whom the earthly Church honors with this adjective (not a name or title, btw) are believed to have demonstrated holiness on earth in a remarkble and exemplary way.

Obviously, there will be some saints who attract us (for lack of a better word) more than others, frequently because there is something about their earthly lives and examples that speak to us. I, for example, have a strong devotion to and veneration for St. Elizabeth the New-Martyred Abbess.

 

[Cachonga]

bpbasilphx:

1. Adam and Eve are also commemorated on the Byzantine Calendar on the two Sundays before Christmas. Don’t forget they were the first people of spiritual significance.

And they died spiritually when they ate the forbidden fruit (and brought all of humanity into sin with them). What makes you think they’re saints?

bpbasilphx:

1. “Saint” is nothing more than the Anglicized form of “Sanctus” (through the Middle English form “sayncte”)–holy. In Latin, you say “Sanctus Archangelus Michael” as well as “Sanctus Joseph.” Most Romance languges use their congnates. German uses “Heilig”, “Agios/a”, and Slavonic “Sviat/i”–all meaning “holy”-- in exactly the same way.

The problem is the Scriptures distinguish between saints (believers) and angels (messengers). I find no scriptural evidence of an angel being a saint (holy, yes; a saint, no). I also find no scriptural evidence to pray to an saint in heaven (angelic or otherwise).

bpbasilphx:

Please give Scriptural support for the unscriptural “doctrine” of Sola Scriptura.

Not the topic of this thread, but I am working on a response to “21 reasons to reject sola scriptura” (from another thread by that same name).

 

[bpbasilphx]

The problem is the Scriptures distinguish between saints (believers) and angels (messengers). I find no scriptural evidence of an angel being a saint (holy, yes; a saint, no). I also find no scriptural evidence to pray to an saint in heaven (angelic or otherwise).

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**“Saint” is being used as an adjective, not a title.

I guess Psalm 102/103 is not in your Bible, then (quoting the KJV):

20Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

21Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.

22Bless the LORD, all his works in all places of his dominion [the souls created by God of believers gone before us are still in the dominion of the Lord]: bless the LORD, O my soul.

Would you like to try again?**

 

[Ginger2]

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**“Saint” is being used as an adjective, not a title.

**

Then why is it always capitalized?

 

[Cachonga]

bpbasilphx:

“Saint” is being used as an adjective, not a title.

I guess Psalm 102/103 is not in your Bible, then (quoting the KJV):

I didn’t see saints or angels mentioned as such in Psalm 102 (maybe you could give a verse or two). In regard to your reference in Psalm 103, I still do not see angels refered to as saints. I would point out Psalms 116:15, which reads, “Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.” (DR) Is “saints” used as an adjective here? I could cite many other examples where “saint” is not used as an adjective. Or perhaps you meant that the “church” uses it as an adjective (regardless of how the Scriptures use it)?

I have afew more questions - were the angels (Michael, Gabriel and Raphael) ever “officially” canonized as Saints? If so, when did this take place? If not, how is it they have a feast day?

 

[dmar198]

I didn’t see saints or angels mentioned as such in Psalm 102 (maybe you could give a verse or two). In regard to your reference in Psalm 103, I still do not see angels refered to as saints.

He quoted Psalm 103 (which is known as Psalm 102 in some Bible translations) in order to prove that it is biblical to pray to the Angels, because a prayer of rejoicing was being prayed in Psalms 103, and the angels are directly addressed in that prayer.

I could cite many other examples where “saint” is not used as an adjective. Or perhaps you meant that the “church” uses it as an adjective (regardless of how the Scriptures use it)?

I have afew more questions - were the angels (Michael, Gabriel and Raphael) ever “officially” canonized as Saints? If so, when did this take place? If not, how is it they have a feast day?

In Mark 8:38, Luke 9:27, Acts 10:22, and Rev. 14:10, we see the angels called “holy;” the Greek word is the same word that is translated “saint” in the rest of the New Testament, because the word “saint” simply means “holy one.”

But even without these explicit Biblical examples of the angels being called “holy,” or “saintly,” we could prove from the Bible that they are saints: the heavenly angels are necessarily “holy ones,” for nothing unholy is in heaven (Rev. 21:27). Therefore the angels are “holy ones,” a.k.a. saints.

There has not been any official canonization; we are simply using the words of the Bible. And per your last question, I do not know when their feast day was proclaimed, but feast days are independent of canonizations so there need be no link between the two.

God bless!
-Dmar198

 

[Ginger2]

He quoted Psalm 103 (which is known as Psalm 102 in some Bible translations) in order to prove that it is biblical to pray to the Angels, because a prayer of rejoicing was being prayed in Psalms 103, and the angels are directly addressed in that prayer.

That’s just silly. The prayer is not addressed to anyone, but rather directing praises to God.

Psalm 103
1 Praise the LORD, O my soul;
If I pray the above verse, am I praying to my soul?

Psa 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. Am I praying to the sun, moon and stars?
Psa 148:7 Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps: Am I praying to dragons?

 

[dmar198]

That’s just silly. The prayer is not addressed to anyone, but rather directing praises to God.

One might say the same of Catholic prayers. “Pray for me, all you angels! Pray for me, all you saints!” Is this addressed to the saints and angels? or is it just directing prayers to God?

Why would you respect a prayer such as “Praise the Lord, all you angels, all his hosts,” but not “pray for me, all you angels, all you saints”?

Psalm 103
1 Praise the LORD, O my soul;
If I pray the above verse, am I praying to my soul?

Psa 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. Am I praying to the sun, moon and stars?
Psa 148:7 Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps: Am I praying to dragons?

Telling inanimate objects to praise the Lord is very different from telling the angels and saints or your own self to praise the Lord. The same Psalm tells all humanity to praise the Lord; but that’s a literal request. This shows that Catholic prayers are biblical; for Catholic prayers do this all the time. “Sing with us ye cherubim!” is part of a very common song in Catholic churches, because we are comfortable following the biblical example of asking the Saints and angels to pray with us. But you won’t find such prayers in Protestant churches, because they reject that aspect of the Communion of Saints, even though it comes straight out of the Bible and the Psalms.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I quoted the Bible, Ginger2.

It’s obvious that you simply won’t accept the pure Word of God, any more than you will accept things you don’t want to hear (which has been demonstrated elsewhere).

 

[bpbasilphx]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post

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“Saint” is being used as an adjective, not a title.

Then why is it always capitalized?

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**And you think that’s of some kind of spiritual or theological significance?

Are you aware that no English Bible capitalized pronouns in Divine reference until the New American Standard version of the 1960’s?

Neither Biblical Hebrew nor Greek knew captial letters.

Their use in English is simply of convention–which has varied throughout the years.

FWIW, in pre-Nikonian Slavonic orthography (used before the 1600’s or so), only the first letters of sentences are capitalized. That means that proper names, even divine ones, used within a sentence are not capitalized.

Do you think that means anything at all? You’re not very bright if you do.

Did you even know that chapter and verse divisions in the Bible are not in the original mss? They are a MUCH later addition.

The translators of the KJV asked, “Has the Kingdom of God now become words and syllables?” I would ask, “Has the Kingdom of God now become a matter of capitalization?”**

 

[Cachonga]

dmar198:

He quoted Psalm 103 (which is known as Psalm 102 in some Bible translations) in order to prove that it is biblical to pray to the Angels, because a prayer of rejoicing was being prayed in Psalms 103, and the angels are directly addressed in that prayer.

Sorry, I don’t see any prayer to angels in this Psalm. I would suggest there is a big difference between asking angels and saints in heaven to join us in praising God, and asking angels or saints to intercede for us with God.

dmar198:

In Mark 8:38, Luke 9:27, Acts 10:22, and Rev. 14:10, we see the angels called “holy;” the Greek word is the same word that is translated “saint” in the rest of the New Testament, because the word “saint” simply means “holy one.”

So I guess it’s translated as “holy” or “saint” according to context? It seems that believers are called “saints” and angels are called “holy” (or do you have an example of “saint angel”?).

BTW - I stand corrected on the Greek word used.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\Sorry, I don’t see any prayer to angels in this Psalm. I would suggest there is a big difference between asking angels and saints in heaven to join us in praising God, and asking angels or saints to intercede for us with God.\

**Wrong suggestion.

I say there’s NO difference, as the English word “pray” basically means “request.” (This can be seen in court papers where such formulae as “the petitioner prays the court…” are used.)

In either case you are invoking and addressing them.**

 

[Cachonga]

bpbasilphx:

I say there’s NO difference, as the English word “pray” basically means “request.” (This can be seen in court papers where such formulae as “the petitioner prays the court…” are used.)

So which verse in Psalm 103 (or 102) indicates “prayer” or “request” of saints or angels? The verses you gave (20-22) sounds more like a command than a request. Verse 22 also addresses “all his works”; would you use this as an excuse to pray to the stars and planets? Then there’s the fact that the Bible wasn’t written in English.

bpbasilphx:

In either case you are invoking and addressing them.

You’re saying there is no difference between “Hey, bpbasilphx, let’s go to church and praise God!” and “Hey, bpbasilphx, while you’re at church, would you pray to God for me?”? I would say there is a BIG difference (and I won’t even mention the added difficulty of addressing someone who has already passed from this life)!

 

[bpbasilphx]

I would say there is a BIG difference (and I won’t even mention the added difficulty of addressing someone who has already passed from this life)!

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I wouldn’t.