Old Testament - seven extra books in Catholic Bibles

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Wow. This thread continues despite the fact the OP has been debunked so many times. Catholics love to have things to offer up! 🙂

Why do people continue to talk to the OP about a subject that is so fully debunked? Now, that is a topic that could lead to hundreds of ours of discussion…the motivation of such conversations…
 
Pwrlftr said:
You are probably right, the reason I brought this up is to substantiate (big word for me) the fact that you brought up. Namely that there was wiggle room on accepting the deutero’s before Trent.

I guess I am not so sure what the councils of Carthage, Hippo, and Florence (thanks to Marco Polo) accomplished w/ regards to the canon.
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Maybe we could compare it to the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. The Church has taught it since the earliest times. I believe people could doubt it and question it all they wanted prior to 1950 when the Pope declared it Dogma.

I am not sure if this analogy is accurate, though. These are my simple thoughts - “the Gospel of Notworthy”, if you will!
 
irishpatrick said:
Wow. This thread continues despite the fact the OP has been debunked so many times. Catholics love to have things to offer up! 🙂

Why do people continue to talk to the OP about a subject that is so fully debunked? Now, that is a topic that could lead to hundreds of ours of discussion…the motivation of such conversations…
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Because we’re finally getting somewhere.
 
NotWorthy said:
A

Now, to your point that "ML included them in the same manner as Jerome" (emphasis mine), that is incorrect.

Jerome wished them to be declared “non inspired” but was corrrected by the Pope. Jerome had no authority to declare them inspired or profitable. His role was to translate the Church Authorized Scriptures from Greek to Latin. Hence, in Jerome’s Latin Vulgate, the Deutero’s were part of the Inspired Scriptures - no less than any of the other books.
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That can’t be accurate as the deuteros were originally placed apart from the Protocanical Scriptures in Jerome’s Vulgate. Not sure if the arrangement is the same in modern publications of the Vulgate or not. But, many translations of the Vulgate rearrange the order of the books and mix them amongst the Protocanicals.

Again, I’m not sure why they don’t keep the same order.

But, the point is Jerome included them with his opinion that they were not inspired right in the Vulgate.

Luther included them also with his opinion that they were not inspired.

The Council of Trent is the first time they were officially declared inspired. There is no declaration to their inspiration before Trent. And the fact that Jerome was allowed to state they were not equal authority enforces that opinion that they were not yet declared inspired.

Jerome didn’t speak for the church, but the church didn’t object to his declaring the uninspired in the Vulgate.
 
NotWorthy said:
Maybe we could compare it to the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. The Church has taught it since the earliest times. I believe people could doubt it and question it all they wanted prior to 1950 when the Pope declared it Dogma.

I am not sure if this analogy is accurate, though. These are my simple thoughts - “the Gospel of Notworthy”, if you will!
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I agree with your analogy. It seems to be a mystery to me at this point.
 
Found it:
for they told you, “In (the) last time there will be scoffers who will live according to their own godless desires.” 12
19
These are the ones who cause divisions; they live on the natural plane, devoid of the Spirit.
20
But you, beloved, build yourselves up in your most holy faith; pray in the holy Spirit.
21
Keep yourselves in the love of God and wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.
22
On those who waver, have mercy; 13
23
save others by snatching them out of the fire; on others have mercy with fear, 14 abhorring even the outer garment stained by the flesh.
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Isn’t it also interesting that the Protestants refer to these books as the Apocrophyl(spelling)

God bless,
 
AD 393:
Council of Hippo. “It has been decided that besides the canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the canonical Scriptures are as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon (included Wisdom and Ecclesiastes (Sirach)), the twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books.”
The Third Council of Carthage reaffirmed anew, the Canon put forth by Pope Damasus I…

AD 397:
Council of Carthage III. “It has been decided that nothing except the canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine Scriptures. But the canonical Scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon (Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Sirach), twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees.”
(canon 47 A.D. 397).
 
irishpatrick said:
AD 393:
Council of Hippo. “It has been decided that besides the canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the canonical Scriptures are as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon (included Wisdom and Ecclesiastes (Sirach)), the twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books.”
The Third Council of Carthage reaffirmed anew, the Canon put forth by Pope Damasus I…

AD 397:
Council of Carthage III. “It has been decided that nothing except the canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine Scriptures. But the canonical Scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon (Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Sirach), twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees.”
(canon 47 A.D. 397).
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This is interesting as these two councils don’t say the same thing. Do you have links to the complete statements?
 
Ginger2 said:
This is interesting as these two councils don’t say the same thing. Do you have links to the complete statements?
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How are they different? The wording is slightly different but do you see anything significant?
 
Hi, HappyRevert,

I joined the list a bit late - and I wanted to thank you for that link. It really is quite good. And don’t feel bad about plagiarizing the material… you gave the reference and surely this must count for something! Considering the good your link is doing - there just has to be an off-set somewhere in the process…😃
HappyRevert said:
I plagiarized this from the site I posted earlier - here are some quotes that are from the Septuagint.

geocities.com/aprofaith/bible.htm.
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Let me ask a question as I share an anecdotal story - and maybe get some additional insights in the process. On Thrusday nights I am a volunteer Chaplain at one of our local jails. I teach a Catholic Bible Study to the inmates. Well, when I started, I had trouble getting Catholic Bibles - so, I worked with the King James Version because this is what everyone had, and at least 1/2 of the inmates that attended were Protestant.

Except for a more archiac language form in the KJV, everywhere I looked, it had the same content with the New American Bible. So, for texts relating to the Real Presence, Confession and the other Sacraments - it was right on target. In fact, it appeared to me to be quite damning when you have the actual words of Christ - that are now being replaced by the Protestants in their 😉 Bible with Protestant traditions of men.

I can say without fear of contradiction, that none of these students appeared to be overly religious - but, for many, seeing the actual words of Christ and a Catholic explanation that (in effect, "Christ knew what He was talking about - so, heads up!!) made quite a difference to some of these men. 😃

I am aware of Luther calling the Epistle of St. James “straw”. I am also aware that he omitted it from ***his ***bible in addition to the seven books in the OT. Now, here is the question: Do we know how St. Jame’s work got back in? As far as I know, James has the clearest statement - a statement written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - that “Faith without works is dead”. (James 2:20.) Which should address the issue for anyone interested in knowing how to square the General Judgment as it appears in Matt 25:31-46 with this statement from James.

Heads up, Ginger2 :rolleyes:

God Bless
 
irishpatrick said:
AD 393:
Council of Hippo. “It has been decided that besides the canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the canonical Scriptures are as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon (included Wisdom and Ecclesiastes (Sirach)), the twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books.”
The Third Council of Carthage reaffirmed anew, the Canon put forth by Pope Damasus I…

AD 397:
Council of Carthage III. “It has been decided that nothing except the canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine Scriptures. But the canonical Scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon (Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Sirach), twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees.”
(canon 47 A.D. 397).
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Hippo and Carthage (2 non-ecumenical and therefore non-infallible) councils declared the canon. Florence again in the late 1400’s (?) declared the canon again and finally Trent made the infallible pronouncement of the OT canon.

But, just after Hippo and Carthage the church sent out the vulgate which included Jerome’s prefaces to each of the deuterocanonical books which cast doubt upon the canonocity of the deutero’s. Later on (several centuries later) this caused doubt with regards to the inspiration of the dueteros.

Why do you think the church sent the vulgate out w/ Jerome’s negative comments on the deutero’s just after Hippo and Carthage?
 
tqualey said:
I am aware of Luther calling the Epistle of St. James “straw”. I am also aware that he omitted it from ***his ***bible…
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ML didn’t omit James or anyother NT book from his bible translation.
 
tqualey said:
Heads up, Ginger2 :rolleyes:

God Bless
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:confused: Not sure what you mean by this.

I won’t be getting into this as it is off topic. I have no objection to you discussing, tho. But if you think this means something new for me, I’m afraid I have already studied it.
 
Pwrlftr said:
How are they different? The wording is slightly different but do you see anything significant?
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I am a writer, and altho I am frequently careless when not working, I am very aware of how the slightest variance can totally change the meaning of a sentence or an entire piece.

I would like to see the original statements to study them and discover exactly what they were expressing.
 
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