Old Testament - seven extra books in Catholic Bibles

[irishpatrick]

There’s two points I’d like to make, and then maybe we can return to the thread.

1st, Ginger, whatever her motives were (and I’ll concede that you may be right, but I don’t really care either way - the Truth will stand out), has proved how asinine the claims are regarding Trent and addition of books. If she came to convert ignorant Catholics, then her plan back-fired royally.

2nd, There’s someone on this thread that used to be a hard-core Protestant, whom I thought was rather anti-Catholic. This person is in the process of converting to Catholicism right now. I’m so proud of the fact that he is converting. But in talking to him, he felt that the posters on CAF hindered his efforts to join the Church rather than aided them. That’s sad. So very sad, and it’s not what we should be about.

Note: I just noticed my anonymous friend had already 'fessed-up! I share his sentiments on the “anti-catholic itchy-trigger finger” syndrome. But I celebrate his conversion!

Good points, thank you.

I feel that in most cases people will be turned away because of the battle, not because of the content. I think people (Catholics) who love apologetics will never give-up the fight no matter how long the battle goes…that is where I think huge mistakes are being made. It is as if they are going to wrestle Ginger into submission no matetr what, and it is clear Ginger has no intention on changing her view, she will not even admit that the Church did not add books.

I think Catholic stubbornness in these discussions makes us look very bad and very petty. I feel there is a lot of pride here, with people wanting to be the next “Dr. Scott Hahn,” or the next “Karl Keating,” etc. Jesus did not act that way, He spoke the truth and then let the Holy Spirit do its work. If people did not believe, or if they rejected Jesus’ message, Jesus never pounded on them endlessly to get them to accept…He gave them total freedom in the face of the truth and He showed us by example how to speak with people and how to help the Holy Spirit in His effort of conversion.

As I said before, the truth of the situation came out almost immediately and the rest of the info on this thread could have been placed in a more appropriate thread where others might have been attracted to discuss the issues. However, very few people agree with me, so my view about this thread does not mean very much and even the mods obviously have no real issue or else they would have closed the thread.

I have had many similar conversations (hundreds actually) and have learned over time that Jesus’ example is the best. I have a family member who at one time was the most staunch anti-Catholic you could find…truly horrible in his speech and attitudes towards Catholics. I had many conversations, all of which did no good at all because he was not yet disposed to hear anything “Catholic.” So, I decided instead to show him a strong Christian witness through my own family and over time he has greatly reduced his anti-Catholic positions and is even now very friendly towards the faith and Church. That came about not as a result of arguments and debates, but rather the Holy Spirit guided him and my family towards a better understanding.

I believe 100% that this thread has potential to do more harm than good, yet since no-one else agrees, that opinion simply does not matter.

 

[guanophore]

I was asked to start this thread by NotWorthy.

It is an entirely appropriate topic for a thread, and deserves it’s own. Your OP demonstrates that you approached the subject making erroneous assertions with an anti-Catholic bias. Unfortunately, this far into the thread, that part has not changed.

It seems that you are on a mission to “prove” Catholicism wrong.

 

[Apryl]

Where are you getting this from? Ginger has questions. They’ve been answered, but that only brought up more questions. Those of us who have been here through the whole debate have learned alot.

Let’s keep this on a Christian level, please!

No need to question any one’s Christianity. I was asking a question, because that was my question. It was earnest, and meant to illicit a response from the person to whom it was sent.

Yes, there are some who have learned a lot. However, based upon the responses I’ve seen from Ginger, I had a question.

Please, consider how you represent Christianity, and how you express your Christianity to others. That includes me.

Have a nice day.

 

[Apryl]

If her goal is to convert Catholics (I’m not sure it is), she is actually having the reverse effect. In the meantime, maybe some of the truth of the Church will get through to her.

I can see that! And that’s wonderful.

I was simply asking because I am curious what she sees her point being. I’m going to be here, and hopefully learning, right along with every one else.

I happen to find anti-Catholic sometimes the best teachers, and often, great motivators for my belief in the church

 

[Apryl]

Unless I misread the number of posts…you only have a total of two posts in this thread.

How can you say your patience level is low?

Because I am impatient

I don’t get your question, or why you think I have to post frequently to lose patience.

Care to explain

 

[Apryl]

Apryl has a good eye. She may be new, but she picked up quickly on Ginger2’s attitude from her posts.

Wait… I’m not new.

See >>>>>> Senior Member… More than 700 posts… was a member for about a year before I started posting, too.

But you are correct: I was responding to the attitidude… the questions were coming, but the responses were as if we are being asked to push a pebble up the side of a building.

BTW: has any one ever made the point to read the Deuterocanonical books? I read Tobit… quite beautiful. But I am not much of a reader, so I didn’t get through all the books as planned.

 

[guanophore]

Wait… I’m not new.

See >>>>>> Senior Member… More than 700 posts… was a member for about a year before I started posting, too.

But you are correct: I was responding to the attitidude… the questions were coming, but the responses were as if we are being asked to push a pebble up the side of a building.

BTW: has any one ever made the point to read the Deuterocanonical books? I read Tobit… quite beautiful. But I am not much of a reader, so I didn’t get through all the books as planned.

I meant newcomer to the thread, and perhaps to Ginger2. If you go back and read her early posts, it is clear that the pattern you recognized has been there.

 

[ac_claire]

I think Catholic stubbornness in these discussions makes us look very bad and very petty. I feel there is a lot of pride here, with people wanting to be the next “Dr. Scott Hahn,” or the next “Karl Keating,” etc. Jesus did not act that way, He spoke the truth and then let the Holy Spirit do its work. If people did not believe, or if they rejected Jesus’ message, Jesus never pounded on them endlessly to get them to accept…He gave them total freedom in the face of the truth and He showed us by example how to speak with people and how to help the Holy Spirit in His effort of conversion.

That was a great post, irishpatrick. Where I would disagree is that regardless of the intentions and/or stubborness of the OP or the meandering length of the thread, I feel that if erroneous statements are being made about the Church, then it’s our duty as Catholics (esp. Catholics posting on an apologetics site) to refute these claims as best we can, and as often as we have to. We must defend the honor of the Church against slander and error.

Think about this, too…the people who’ve posted here aren’t the only ones who will read this thread. There are countless lurkers (present and future) who are reading and we have to set the record straight for their benefit as well.

 

[irishpatrick]

That was a great post, irishpatrick. Where I would disagree is that regardless of the intentions and/or stubborness of the OP or the meandering length of the thread, I feel that if erroneous statements are being made about the Church, then it’s our duty as Catholics (esp. Catholics posting on an apologetics site) to refute these claims as best we can, and as often as we have to. We must defend the honor of the Church against slander and error.

Think about this, too…the people who’ve posted here aren’t the only ones who will read this thread. There are countless lurkers (present and future) who are reading and we have to set the record straight for their benefit as well.

I agree completely and take no issue with defending the faith and wish more Catholics would do so. However, as I said before, stating the truth once, perhaps even twice, is more than enough. I feel that the longer a thread goes, and the longer an anti-Catholic can wage a fight against the faith, the more doubt is then sowed in a person who is weak of faith. Had we Catholics simply stated our case, and then left the thread, it would have shutdown around 50 posts. In this case Ginger clearly was proved wrong about her OP very early in this thread, yet she refused to admit it and instead continually changed the direction of the thread in order to continue to attack the faith. It is clear her intent is to attack the faith and this thread gave her the time, space and voice to do exactly that.

I said this before…think about the Da Vince Code. Whenever Catholics screamed the loudest about how bad the book and movie was, the more we attracted people to want to read the book and see the movie. Had we honorably and succinctly spoken our case and then let it go at that, we would have done much more good, imo.

I think Jesus told us to kick the dust from our sandals for a reason.

Thanks for the kind words…God Bless you.

 

[patrick457]

Are we all done yet? I sure hope this thread doesn’t exceed the thousand-post limit (but who knows).

 

[kimmielittle]

I think, I want Dave and a few others here to teach me history

I also wish to thank the other defenders of my Faith, my Church.

Albeit: I had thought it was WELL established long ago, that The Catholic Church didn’t add the so called “Seven extra Books” and that should have been agreed on - or at least rested, I learned more about my Faith and it’s members, by this threads missive lengths.

1: We do not blindly accept Our Faith ( as accused of ).
2: The amount of erroneous information that flies in the face of us Catholics.
3:That the charity and love used can and does defend against even heresy.

 

[twb1621]

Instead of relying on commentaries you need compare the books from the Septuagint, the councils and the Vulgate.

Then you can whether they are they same or not.

I know this is more work, and the there are varying versions of the Septuagint, but it is the only way to settle whether or not the canons are the same.

Also, The council at Trent statements conclude the Bible Catholics have accepted for 1000 as the accurate canon of the Church is not the same as the one adopted at Trent.

In a way this is a lose lose situation for you. Even if the Trent and Hippo/Carthage canons matched exactly, which they don’t, you would have to concede the church used an incorrect canon for 1000 years. That destroys the claim the RC had the correct canon for 1500 years before ML.

Although there were conflicts during the era you refer to the Catholic Church always maintained the same teachings based on the same inclusions. In order to accurately present the position of the CC in the synods you refer to, you must research all related documents with the Councils documents to best conclude the outcome.

Synods of Carthage“…while eminent scholars and theorists were thus depreciating the additional writings, the official attitude of the Latin Church, always favourable to them, kept the majestic tenor of its way. Two documents of capital importance in the history of the canon constitute the first formal utterance of papal authority on the subject. The first is the so-called “Decretal of Gelasius”, de recipiendis et non recipiendis libris, the essential part of which is now generally attributed to a synod convoked by Pope Damasus in the year 382. The other is the Canon of Innocent I, sent in 405 to a Gallican bishop in answer to an inquiry. Both contain all the deuterocanonicals, without any distinction, and are identical with the catalogue of Trent. The African Church, always a staunch supporter of the contested books, found itself in entire accord with Rome on this question. Its ancient version, the Vetus Latina (less correctly the Itala), had admitted all the Old Testament Scriptures. St. Augustine seems to theoretically recognize degrees of inspiration; in practice he employs protos and deuteros without any discrimination whatsoever. Moreover in his “De Doctrinâ Christianâ” he enumerates the components of the complete Old Testament. The Synod of Hippo (393) and the three of Carthage (393, 397, and 419), in which, doubtless, Augustine was the leading spirit, found it necessary to deal explicitly with the question of the Canon, and drew up identical lists from which no sacred books are excluded. These councils base their canon on tradition and liturgical usage.”

newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm

Council of Trent
Decree Concerning The Canonical Scriptures

The holy, ecumenical and general Council of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same three legates of the Apostolic See presiding, keeps this constantly in view, namely, that the purity of the Gospel may be preserved in the Church after the errors have been removed.
This [Gospel], of old promised through the Prophets in the Holy Scriptures,[1] our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, promulgated first with His own mouth, and then commanded it to be preached by His Apostles to every creature[2] as the source at once of all saving truth and rules of conduct.
It also clearly perceives that these truths and rules are contained in the written books and in the unwritten traditions, which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ Himself, or from the Apostles themselves,[3] the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down to us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand.
Following, then, the examples of the orthodox Fathers, it receives and venerates with a feeling of piety and reverence all the books both of the Old and New Testaments, since one God is the author of both; also the traditions, whether they relate to faith or to morals, as having been dictated either orally by Christ or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church in unbroken succession.
It has thought it proper, moreover, to insert in this decree a list of the sacred books, lest a doubt might arise in the mind of someone as to which are the books received by this council.[4]
They are the following:
Of the Old Testament, the five books of Moses, namely, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first and second of Esdras, the latter of which is called Nehemias, Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidic Psalter of 150 Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel, the twelve minor Prophets, namely, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of Machabees, the first and second.
Of the New Testament, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen Epistles of Paul the Apostle, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the Apostle, three of John the Apostle, one of James the Apostle, one of Jude the Apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the Apostle.
If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema.”

americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/TRENT/trent4.htm

 

[twb1621]

As far as defending the Faith is concerned? Its our obligation to support each other in the defense of the Truth. After all, we only plant the seed…

 

[Ginger2]

Since no one wants to move forward and discuss the new information Pwrlftr introduced, I will provide a final summation before departing:

Catholic claim 1: Martin Luther removed 7 books from the Bible.
Fact:
Martin Luther did exactly what Jerome had done.
Luther separated the deuteros from the protocanicals. He appended the deuteros at the end of the OT with this comment, “These books are not held equal to the Scriptures, but are useful and good to read.”
Jerome stated, " the Church reads the books ….but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads …for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine." - Jerome’s preface to the books of Solomon.

Catholic Claim 2: The Deuteros have always been part of the inspired Scriptures.
FACT:

• 1. The earliest canons do not include the Deuteros - and no one has found any disagreement from the same time period.
• 1. In contrast, there was disagreement found within the same time period as Hippo and Carthage.
• 1. The Catholic Encyclopedia admits:
     “[The deuterocanonical (deuteros, “second”) are those whose **Scriptural character was contested in some quarters,”
     The Catholic Church admits the deuteros were not always universally accepted,- at first they were disputed.
• 1. When Jerome added them, he placed them apart from inspired Scriptures stating those 7 books were not of inspired authority as were the rest. Many church fathers agreed the deuteros were not inspired.
• 1. The pope consented to Jerome writing his “opinion” in the Vulgate stating the deuteros were not inspired, thereby giving, at the very least, the appearance the pope agreed.

Catholic Claim 3. Catholics have used the exact same canon since Jerome translated the Scriptures into Latin under the authority of Pope Damascus.
Fact:
The Council of Trent “passed over” 3 books that were originally included in Jerome’s vulgate. handsonapologetics.com/first_…te_webster.htm
Therefore the canon that was accepted for over 1000 years by the RC is not the same canon the RC uses today.

Thanks to all who helped make this thread a profitable learning experience. And thanks to the moderators for deleting off topic posts. - especially those whose sole purpose appeared to be to badger and insult.

May God Bless and keep all of you throughout the new year.

 

[Pete_Holter]

I went through the Book of Sirach with the intent of discerning the presence of the same Spirit Who had written the New Testament and the rest of the Old Testament. I was looking for the same principles being taught, the same wording used, a fulfillment of something lacking, etc. I think I found ample evidence of His presence here! But some of the comparisons I’ve made are better than others, or, should I say, worse than others. One of my favorite comparisons is Sirach 43:26, which says, “By His Word all things hold together.” This is practically identical with the verse from Colossians where Paul tells us that “In Him [that is, in Jesus the Word] all things hold together” (Col 1:17). Wow!

Well, I hope that this is a boon to your faith, whoever you may be. To enhance readability, I’ve grouped the comparisons by indenting every other set. May the Lord be with you all!​

“Unrighteous anger cannot be justified, for a man’s anger tips the scale to his ruin” (Sirach 1:22).

“The anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God” (James 1:20).

“Do not exalt yourself lest you fall, and thus bring dishonor upon yourself. The Lord will reveal your secrets and cast you down in the midst of the congregation” (Sirach 1:30).

“Do not seek …] the seat of honor from the king” (Sirach 7:4).

“The Lord has cast down the thrones of rulers, and has seated the lowly in their place” (Sirach 10:14).

“When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this person,’ and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher’” (Luke 14:8-9).

A patient man will endure until the right moment” (Sirach 1:23).

“Let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up” (Gal 6:9).

“Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains” (James 5:7).

“Whoever honors his father will be gladdened by his own children, and when he prays he will be heard” (Sirach 3:5).

“husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered” (1 Pet 3:7).

“Whoever forsakes his father is like a blasphemer” (Sirach 3:16).

“But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever” (1 Tim 5:8).

“Deprive not the poor of his living …] for if in bitterness of soul he calls down a curse upon you, his Creator will hear his prayer” (Sirach 4:1; 4:6).

“Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts” (James 5:4).

“Be quick to hear, and be deliberate in answering” (Sirach 5:11).

“Be quick to hear, slow to speak” (James 1:19).

“Observe the right time, and beware of evil” (Sirach 5:20).

“…making the best use of the time, because the days are evil” (Eph 5:16).

“Do not prattle in the assembly of the elders, nor repeat yourself in prayer” (Sirach 7:14).

“And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words” (Matt 6:7).

“Mourn with those who mourn” (Sirach 7:34).

“Weep with those who weep” (Rom 12:15).

“Do not shrink from visiting a sick man, because for such deeds you will be loved” (Sirach 7:35).

“Come, you who are blessed by my Father, …] for I was sick and you visited Me” (Matt 25:34, 36).

“If you do lend anything, be as one who has lost it” (Sirach 8:12).

“Lend, expecting nothing in return” (Luke 6:35).

“The government of the earth is in the hands of the Lord, and over it He will raise up the right man for the time” (Sirach 10:4).

“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed” (Rom 13:1-2).

“Ascribe to yourself honor according to your worth” (Sirach 10:28).

“I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he aught to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned” (Rom 12:3).

“Who will justify the man that sins against himself?” (Sirach 10:29)

“Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body” (1 Cor 6:18).

“The LORD’S gift remains with the just; his favor brings continued success. A man may become rich through a miser’s life, and this is his allotted reward: When he says: ‘I have found rest, now I will feast on my possessions,’ He does not know how long it will be till he dies and leaves them to others” (Sirach 11:17-19).

“And he said, ‘I will do this: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.’ But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So is the one who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God” (Luke 12:18-21).

 

[Pete_Holter]

“At the close of a man’s life his deeds will be revealed” (Sirach 11:27).

“Each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire” (1 Cor 3:13).

“Call no man happy before his death” (Sirach 11:28).

“Do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.” (1 Cor 4:5).

“From a spark of fire come many burning coals” (Sirach 11:32).

“A little leaven leavens the whole lump” (Gal 5:9).

“Give to the godly man, but do not help the sinner. Do good to the humble, but do not give to the ungodly; hold back his bread, and do not give it to him… For the Most High also hates sinners… Give to the good man, but do not help the sinner” (Sirach 12:4-7).

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy’” (Matt 6:43).

“What fellowship has a wolf with a lamb? No more has a sinner with a godly man. What peace is there between a hyena and a dog? And what peace between a rich man and a poor man?” (Sirach 13:17-18)

“Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols?” (2 Cor 6:14-16)

“Blessed is the man who does not blunder with his lips” (Sirach 14:1).

“If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man” (James 3:2).

“Blessed is he whose heart does not condemn him, and who has not given up his hope” (Sirach 14:2).

“If our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God” (1 John 3:21).

“If a man is mean to himself, to whom will he be generous? …] No one is meaner than the man who is grudging to himself” (Sirach 14:5, 6).

“For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it” (Eph 5:29).

“Do not say, ‘Because of the Lord I left the right way’; for He will not do what He hates. Do not say, ‘It was He who led me astray’… If you will, you can keep the commandments, and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice… He has not commanded anyone to be ungodly, and He has not given anyone permission to sin” (Sirach 15:11-12, 14-15, 20).

“Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am being tempted by God,’ for God cannot be tempted with evil, and He himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire” (James 1:13-14).

“For mercy and wrath are with the Lord; He is mighty to forgive, and He pours out wrath. As great as His mercy, so great is also His reproof” (Sirach 16:11-12).

“Note then the kindness and the severity of God” (Rom 11:22).

“He judges a man according to his deeds” (Sirach 16:12).

“The Lord will repay him according to his deeds” (2 Tim 4:14).

“And if you call on Him as Father Who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds…” (1 Pet 1:17).

“Who has never sinned with his tongue?” (Sirach 19:16)

“No human being can tame the tongue” (James 3:8).

“When a servant says to his master, ‘I will not act as you wish,’ even if later he does it, he angers the one who supports him” (Sirach 19:21).

“A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ And he answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he changed his mind and went” (Matt 21:28-29).

“Insults precede bloodshed” (Sirach 22:24).

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that… whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council” (Matt 5:21, 22).

“Do not accustom your mouth to oaths, and do not habitually utter the Name of the Holy One; for as a servant who is continually examined under torture will not lack bruises, so also the man who always swears and utters the Name will not be cleansed from sin. A man who swears many oaths will be filled with iniquity …]; if he has sworn needlessly, he will not be justified” (Sirach 23:9-11).

“I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil” (Matt 5:34-37).

“But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your ‘yes’ be yes and your ‘no’ be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation” (James 5:12).

“Do not accustom your mouth to lewd vulgarity” (Sirach 23:13).

“Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place” (Eph 5:4).

“But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth” (Col 3:8).

 

[Pete_Holter]

“A man who commits fornication with his near of kin will never cease until the fire burns him up” (Sirach 23:16).

“It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife. …] Let him who has done this be removed from among you” (1 Cor 5:1-2).

“So it is with a woman who leaves her husband and provides an heir by a stranger. …] She herself will be brought before the assembly” (Sirach 23:22, 24).

“The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, ‘Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery’” (John 8:3-4).

“Wisdom will praise herself, and will glory in the midst of her people… ‘I am the mother of beautiful love, of fear, of knowledge, and of holy hope; being eternal, I therefore am given to all my children, to those who are named by Him’” (Sirach 24:1, 18).

“Wisdom is justified by all her children” (Luke 7:35).

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of love for him” (Sirach 25:12).

“There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear” (1 John 4:18).

“A silent wife is a gift of the Lord” (Sirach 26:14).

“The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says” (1 Cor 14:34).

“…the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious” (1 Pet 3:4).

“The fruit discloses the cultivation of a tree; so the expression of a thought discloses the cultivation of a man’s mind” (Sirach 27:6).

“You will recognize them by their fruits” (Matt 7:16).

“How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks” (Matt 12:34).

“Like the sun rising in the heights of the Lord, so is the beauty of a good wife in her well-ordered home” (Sirach 26:16).

“Older women likewise are to be …] working at home” (Titus 2:3, 5).

“Forgive your neighbor the wrong he has done, and then your sins will be pardoned when you pray” (Sirach 28:2).

“Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors… For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Matt 6:12, 14-15).

Does a man harbor anger against another, and yet seek for healing from the Lord? Does he have no mercy toward a man like himself and yet pray for his own sins? If he himself, being flesh, maintains wrath, who will make expiation for his sins? (Sirach 28:3-5).

“Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents… And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’… Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. So also My heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” Matt (18:23-35).

“Lend to your neighbor in the time of his need” (Sirach 29:2).

“Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back” (Luke 6:30).

“Lay up your treasure according to the commandments of the Most High… Store up almsgiving in your treasury” (Sirach 29:11, 12).

“Lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven” (Matt 6:20).

“Take heed to yourself lest you fall” (Sirach 29:20).

“Let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor 10:12).

“The essentials for life are water and bread and clothing and a house to cover one’s nakedness” (Sirach 29:21).

“If we have food and clothing, with these we will be content” (1 Tim 6:8).

“Be content with little or much” (Sirach 29:23).

I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need” (Phil 4:11-12).

“He who loves gold will not be justified and he who pursues money will be led astray by it” (Sirach 31:5).

“For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs” (1 Tim 6:10).

“Who has had the power to transgress and did not transgress, and to do evil and did not do it?” (Sirach 31:10)

“For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing” (Rom 7:19).

“Judge your neighbor’s feelings by your own, and in every matter be thoughtful” (Sirach 31:15).

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them” (Matt 7:12).

“Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others” (Phil 2:4).

“In all your work be industrious” (Sirach 31:22).

“You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me. In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak” (Acts 20:34-35).

“We labor, working with our own hands” (1 Cor 4:12).

“I worked harder than any of them” (1 Cor 15:10).

“With toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you” (2 Thess 3:8).

 

[Pete_Holter]

“Do not aim to be valiant over wine, for wine has destroyed many” (Sirach 31:25).

“Do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery” (Eph 5:18).

“If they make you master of the feast, do not exalt yourself; be among them as one of them; take good care of them and then be seated; when you have fulfilled your duties, take your place, that you may be merry on their account and receive a wreath for your excellent leadership” (Sirach 32:1).

“You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant” (Matt 20:25-26).

“When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, He said to them, ‘Do you understand what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you. Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.” (John 13:12-17).

“Those who fear the Lord will form true judgments” (Sirach 32:16).

“Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment” (John 7:24).

“Do not be overconfident on a smooth way, and give good heed to your paths” (Sirach 32:21).

“Let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor 10:12).

“Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted” (Gal 6:1).

“No evil will befall the man who fears the Lord, but in trial He will deliver him again and again” (Sirach 33:1).

“God is faithful, and He will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation He will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it” (1 Cor 10:13).

“All men are from the ground, and Adam was created of the dust. In the fullness of His knowledge the Lord distinguished them and appointed their different ways; some of them He blessed and exalted, and some of them He made holy and brought near to himself; but some of them He cursed and brought low, and He turned them out of their place. As clay in the hand of the potter – for all His ways are as He pleases – so men are in the hand of Him Who made them, to give them as He decides” (Sirach 33:10-13).

“What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’ So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, ‘For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My Name might be proclaimed in all the earth.’ So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.

“You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who can resist his will?’ But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory” (Rom 9:14-23).

“If you have a servant, treat him as a brother” (Sirach 33:31).

“For this perhaps is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back forever, no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother” (Philemon 15-16).

“[God] is not propitiated for sins by a multitude of sacrifices” (Sirach 34:19).

“In these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins” (Heb 10:3-4).

 

[Pete_Holter]

“To take away a neighbor’s living is to murder him; to deprive an employee of his wages is to shed blood” (Sirach 34:22).

“Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you… You have condemned and murdered the righteous person” (James 5:4-6).

“Glorify the Lord generously, and do not stint the first fruits of your hands. With every gift show a cheerful face, and dedicate your tithe with gladness. Give to the Most High as He has given, and as generously as your hand has found. For the Lord is the one who repays, and He will repay you sevenfold” (Sirach 35:8-11).

“Whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Cor 9:6-7).

“The Lord is the judge, and with Him is no partiality” (Sirach 35:12).

“The wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality” (Col 3:25).

“He whose service is pleasing to the Lord will be accepted, and his prayer will reach to the clouds” (Sirach 35:16).

“The effective prayer of a righteous person has great power” (James 5:7).

“My son, when you are sick do not be negligent, but pray to the Lord, and he will heal you. Give up your faults and direct your hands aright, and cleanse your heart from all sin” (Sirach 38:9-10).

“Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. …] Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven” (James 5:13-15).

“From the beginning good things were created for good people… Basic to all the needs of man’s life are water and fire and iron and salt and wheat flour and milk and honey, the blood of the grape, and oil and clothing. All these are for good to the godly” (Sirach 39:25-27).

“And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good” (Rom 8:28).

“The words of the Lord are all good, and He will supply every need in its hour” (Sirach 39:33).

“And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work” (2 Cor 9:8).

“He searches out …] the hearts of men… No thought escapes Him and not one word is hidden from Him” (Sirach 42:18, 20).

And no creature is hidden from His sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of Him to Whom we must give account” (Heb 4:13).

“He needs no one to be His counselor” (Sirach 42:21).

“For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” (Rom 11:34)

“By His Word all things hold together” (Sirach 43:26).

“In Him all things hold together” (Col 1:17).

“He is the all” (Sirach 43:27).

“…that God may be all in all” (1 Cor 15:28).

Addressing Elijah: “You who are ready at the appointed time, it is written, …] to restore the tribes of Jacob” (Sirach 48:10).

“Elijah does come, and he will restore all things” (Matt 17:11).

 

[NotWorthy]

Since no one wants to move forward and discuss the new information Pwrlftr introduced, I will provide a final summation before departing:

May God Bless and keep all of you throughout the new year.

Ginger, have we been reading the same thread? I thought we were, but your summations make me wonder…