Old Testament - seven extra books in Catholic Bibles

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Yeshua ben-Sira (Joshua/Jesus son of Sirach), the author of the book of Sirach, had access to, and considered authoritative, the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the twelve minor prophets.

His list excludes names from Ruth, Song of Songs, Esther, Daniel, and Job, suggesting that he either did not have access to these books, or did not consider them authoritative. In the prologue to the Greek translation of Ben Sira’s work, his grandson, dated at 132 B.C., mentions both the Law (Torah) and the Prophets (Nevi’im), as well as a third group of books which is not yet named as Ketuvim, the “Writings” (the prologue simply identifies “the rest of the books”). Based on this evidence, some scholars have suggested that by the 2nd century BC the books of the Torah and Nevi’im were considered canonical, but that the books of the Ketuvim were not.

A bit later, by the time the Septuagint was produced (3rd to 1st century BC), the Torah and Nevi’im are already established as canonical, but, the Ketuvim appear not to have been definitively canonized yet. For instance, some editions of the Septuagint include, for instance I–IV Maccabees or the 151st Psalm, while others do not include them, also there are the Septuagint additions to Esther, Jeremiah, and Daniel and 1 Esdras. The authority of the larger group of writings, out of which the Ketuvim were selected, had not yet been determined, although some sort of selective process must have been employed because the Septuagint did not include other well-known Jewish documents such as the Book of Enoch or Jubilees or others. It is not known what principles were used to determine the contents of the Septuagint beyond the Law and the Prophets.

The Septuagint was held with great respect in ancient times; Philo and Josephus even ascribed divine inspiration to its authors, early Christians quoted from it, and many early translations of the Bible used this as their source. While Jews have not used the Septuagint in worship or religious study since the 2nd century AD (due to various factors), recent scholarship has brought renewed interest in it in Judaic Studies. Some of the Dead Sea scrolls attest to Hebrew texts other than those on which the Masoretic Text was based; in some cases, these newly found texts accord with the Septuagint.

The Dead Sea scrolls refer to the Torah and Nevi’im (the Prophets) and suggest that these portions of the Bible had already been canonized before 68 AD. A scroll that contains all or parts of 41 Biblical psalms, although not in the same order as in the current Book of Psalms, and which includes eight texts not found in the Book of Psalms, suggests that the Book of Psalms had not yet been canonized in the form that we know today.

At the time of Jesus, there was still no definitive “canon” among many Jews. Different Jewish sects used different canons; for example, the Sadducees only accepted the Torah and believed in a literal interpretation of it, while the Pharisees accepted some more, while other communities may have accepted further. Philo discussed sacred books, but made no mention of a tripartite division of the Bible; he almost always exclusively quoted from the Torah, but also occasionally cited Sirach and the Wisdom of Solomon.

The Mishna, compiled by the second century, describes some of the debate over the status of some books of Ketuvim, and in particular whether or not they render the hands “impure”. Yadaim 3:5 calls attention to the debate over Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes. The Megillat Ta’anit, in a discussion of days when fasting is prohibited but that are not noted in the Bible, mentions the holiday of Purim. Based on these, and a few similar references, Heinrich Graetz concluded in 1871 that there had been a Council of Jamnia (or Yavne in Hebrew) which had decided Jewish canon sometime in the late 1st century (c. 70–90). This became the prevailing scholarly consensus for much of the 20th century. However, from the 1960s onwards, based on the work of J.P. Lewis, S.Z. Leiman, and others, this view increasingly came into question.

Rabbi Jacob Neusner published books in 1987 and 1988 that argued that the notion of a biblical canon was not prominent in second-century Rabbinic Judaism or even later and instead that a notion of Torah was expanded to include the Mishna, the Tosefta, the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmud and the midrashim.
 
When Jerome added them, he placed them apart from inspired Scriptures stating those 7 books were not of inspired authority as were the rest.
“As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine.”* Jerome(340-420) - Jerome’s preface to the books of Solomon.
Let’s see Jerome’s respective prefaces. Here is his preface to Judith:

Among the Jews, the book of Judith is considered among the apocrypha; its warrant for affirming those [apocryphal texts] which have come into dispute is deemed less than sufficient. Moreover, since it was written in the Chaldean (i.e. old Aramaic) language, it is counted among the historical books. But since the Nicene Council is considered to have counted this book among the number of sacred Scriptures, I have acquiesced to your (plural) request (or should I say demand!): and, my other work set aside, from which I was forcibly restrained, I have given a single night’s work, translating according to sense rather than verbatim. I have hacked away at the excessively error-ridden panoply of the many codices; I conveyed in Latin only what I could find expressed coherently in the Chaldean words. Receive the widow Judith, example of chastity, and with triumphant praise acclaim her with eternal public celebration. For not only for women, but even for men, she has been given as a model by the one who rewards her chastity, who has ascribed to her such virtue that she conquered the unconquered among humanity, and surmounted the insurmountable.

And, here is the prologue to the books of Solomon. He implicitly defines the canon of Scriptures as those books used “for confirming the authority of eccelsiastical dogmas,” and excludes the ‘apocrypha’ from that category. Granted, the majority of the ‘apocrypha’ are not useful for this, but then neither, admittedly, are a number of canonical works. And although Jerome here states that the Deuteros that he names are not “canonical Scriptures,” he recognized the authority of the Council of Nicea in advancing Judith as canonical (as evidenced in the above prologue):

Jerome to Bishops Cromatius and Heliodorus.

May the letter join those joined in priesthood. Indeed, a sheet may not divide those who the love of Christ has connected. You request commentaries on Hosea, Amos, Zechariah, and Malachi. I wrote, even if it cost through ill-health. You have sent the solace of expenses, by our scribes and copyist having been sustained, so that our genius exerts itself most strongly for you. And behold, from every side a diverse crowd of those demanding, as though it is equal for me either to work for you with others hungering, or I might be subject to anyone besides you in matters of giving and receiving. And so, with a long sickness broken, I have not kept inwardly silent this year and been mute with you. I have dedicated to your names the work of three days, namely the translation of the three scrolls of Solomon: Masloth, which are Parables in Hebrew, called in the common edition Proverbs; Coeleth, which in Greek is Ecclesiastes, in Latin we could say Preacher; (and) Sirassirim, which is translated into our language Song of Songs.

Also included is the book of the model of virtue Jesus son of Sirach, and another falsely ascribed work which is titled Wisdom of Solomon. The former of these I have also found in Hebrew, titled not Ecclesiasticus as among the Latins, but Parables, to which were joined Ecclesiastes and Song of Songs, as though it made of equal worth the likeness not only of the number of the books of Solomon, but also the kind of subjects. The second was never among the Hebrews, the very style of which reeks of Greek eloquence. And none of the ancient scribes affirm this one is of Philo Judaeus. Therefore, just as the Church also reads the books of Judith, Tobias, and the Maccabees, but does not receive them among the the canonical Scriptures, so also one may read these two scrolls for the strengthening of the people, (but) not for confirming the authority of ecclesiastical dogmas.

If anyone is truly more pleased by the edition of the Seventy interpreters, he has it already corrected by us. For it is not as though we build the new so that we destroy the old. And yes, when one will have read most carefully, he will know our things to be more understood, which haven’t soured by having been poured into a third vessel, but have rather preserved their flavor by having been entrusted to a new container immediately from the press.
 
Finally, here is his prologue to Tobit, which emphasizes that while the apocrypha were not included in the Hebrew Bible, and St. Jerome respects the Hebrew studies on this matter, he explicitly states here that the decisions of Christian bishops are more important:

Jerome to the Bishops in the Lord Cromatius and Heliodorus, health!

I do not cease to wonder at the constancy of your demanding. For you demand that I bring a book written in Chaldean words into Latin writing, indeed the book of Tobias, which the Hebrews exclude from the catalogue of Divine Scriptures, being mindful of those things which they have titled Hagiographa. I have done enough for your desire, yet not by my study. For the studies of the Hebrews rebuke us and find fault with us, to translate this for the ears of Latins contrary to their canon. But it is better to be judging the opinion of the Pharisees to displease and to be subject to the commands of bishops. I have persisted as I have been able, and because the language of the Chaldeans is close to Hebrew speech, finding a speaker very skilled in both languages, I took to the work of one day, and whatever he expressed to me in Hebrew words, this, with a summoned scribe, I have set forth in Latin words. I will be paid the price of this work by your prayers, when, by your grace, I will have learned what you request to have been completed by me was worthy.
 
It’s actually quite interesting the kind of debating that is going on here about when the actual canon was established and finished and done, etc. If Ginger is right, then the councils pre-Trent were correct in infallibly establishing the canon (according to what she believes). If we are right, the the councils ending with Trent were infallible in establishing the canon.

Looks like we both, Ginger and us, believe that councils established the canon, and not the Bible itself. Hmmmm . . .
 
As far as I know the earliest copies of the septuagint we have are Christian, not Jewish copies, that date only as early as around the 4th century. Additionally the different manuscripts that we have access to contain different books. For example, some manuscripts contain 3 and 4 Maccabees or the Psalms of Solomon and some manuscripts such as the codex Vaticanus omit 1 and 2 Maccabees.

Anyway, I don’t think it’s accurate to say “the septuagint contains the deuterocanonical books” because we don’t appear to know exactly what books the septuagint contained before and during the apostolic age and the only copies we have are Christian manuscripts. As I mentioned earlier, these manuscripts are not consistent w/ one another regarding their contents.
This sounds like a handy dismissal. The truth is that the councils knew what books were in the Septuagint,and when it canonized it along with the NT, it was because that was the version used by the Apostles. No books were “added” after that.
 
This sounds like a handy dismissal. The truth is that the councils knew what books were in the Septuagint,and when it canonized it along with the NT, it was because that was the version used by the Apostles. No books were “added” after that.
Wait a minute. The books of the Septuagint were the same AD 5 versus 380 AD? Thats a new one. As has been stated, the earliest existing copies contain different books. The contents of the Septuagint circa AD 30 or even AD 100 were not set. It is fine to bring up the councils but to suggest that it was somehow set before it was…
 
All this study and argumental writing to and fro, where do you think It will go to, or get you to?
Mypoint is, that the bible has parts that if you relate to how God want’s you to understand then all will be underatood in loving each other, not just a lot of pointing out so that one might over shaddow another. I am saying that all the study in the world will only give your own understanding through how you have read the study you have.

Jesus gives the right way to understand and that is through the HOLY SPIRIT giving you the understanding HE want’s you to have when and where He desires since the only glory will be that given unto God.

Throw away your learned books let the Holy Spirit show you from the heart.

Godebless
 
Wait a minute. The books of the Septuagint were the same AD 5 versus 380 AD? Thats a new one. As has been stated, the earliest existing copies contain different books. The contents of the Septuagint circa AD 30 or even AD 100 were not set. It is fine to bring up the councils but to suggest that it was somehow set before it was…
Here is a good non-Catholic, non-Protestant website.

orthodoxwiki.org/Septuagint
 
All this study and argumental writing to and fro, where do you think It will go to, or get you to?
Mypoint is, that the bible has parts that if you relate to how God want’s you to understand then all will be underatood in loving each other, not just a lot of pointing out so that one might over shaddow another. I am saying that all the study in the world will only give your own understanding through how you have read the study you have.

Jesus gives the right way to understand and that is through the HOLY SPIRIT giving you the understanding HE want’s you to have when and where He desires since the only glory will be that given unto God.

Throw away your learned books let the Holy Spirit show you from the heart.

Godebless
I agree with you , littleone. However love tellst the truth, and that is not what the OP did. This erroneous information may have been posted out of deliberate malice, or more likely, ignorance, but it is still false, and needs to be corrected.
 
I agree with you , littleone. However love tellst the truth, and that is not what the OP did. This erroneous information may have been posted out of deliberate malice, or more likely, ignorance, but it is still false, and needs to be corrected.
**You have a point and I do believe that Jesus would more than not have left the arguee to their own end and or deception since it seems pointless.
Even the OP would know God alone is the judge and with all their arguing for what, God will have His way, and it could be descructive to the OP and if followed any other.**Godbless

Love is all we need, it is more importaint to give your shirt to one who has nothing when you have two, than to have two words that mean nothing and give these to one who has not eaten.
Godbless
 
But that was before we discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls (around 1950?) which do indeed have scraps of 6 of the 7 deuterocanonicals written in Hebrew.
Only three of the deuterocanonical books were found among the Dead Sea scrolls: Tobit, Sirach, and Baruch. The Dead Sea Scrolls included about 650 extra-biblical manuscripts which included uninspired writings such as songs, prayers, commentaries, and many secular works.

In other words, Just because a book or letter was found among inspired writings, doesn’t mean that book is inspired. Does your church library contain uninspired Christian writings?

The first two mentioned were written during the silent time when there were no prophets. Prophets are those who speak for God. God tells them something and they tell others, either in words or in writings. While others can share truths about God, only prophets are speaking under inspiration

Baruch, on-the-other-hand, was supposedly written within the prophetic era.

That’s long enough for one post. We can discuss Baruch more later if you like.
 
Only three of the deuterocanonical books were found among the Dead Sea scrolls: Tobit, Sirach, and Baruch. The Dead Sea Scrolls included about 650 extra-biblical manuscripts which included uninspired writings such as songs, prayers, commentaries, and many secular works.

In other words, Just because a book or letter was found among inspired writings, doesn’t mean that book is inspired. Does your church library contain uninspired Christian writings?

The first two mentioned were written during the silent time when there were no prophets. Prophets are those who speak for God. God tells them something and they tell others, either in words or in writings. While others can share truths about God, only prophets are speaking under inspiration

Baruch, on-the-other-hand, was supposedly written within the prophetic era.

That’s long enough for one post. We can discuss Baruch more later if you like.
Given that the Canon was compiled by the Church, guided by thr Holy Spirit, I will defer to the Church, and not to mere men with an axe to grind.
 
Only three of the deuterocanonical books were found among the Dead Sea scrolls: Tobit, Sirach, and Baruch. The Dead Sea Scrolls included about 650 extra-biblical manuscripts which included uninspired writings such as songs, prayers, commentaries, and many secular works.

In other words, Just because a book or letter was found among inspired writings, doesn’t mean that book is inspired. Does your church library contain uninspired Christian writings?

The first two mentioned were written during the silent time when there were no prophets. Prophets are those who speak for God. God tells them something and they tell others, either in words or in writings. While others can share truths about God, only prophets are speaking under inspiration

Baruch, on-the-other-hand, was supposedly written within the prophetic era.

That’s long enough for one post. We can discuss Baruch more later if you like.
Thanks for the correction about only three being found, but did I claim that this made the deutero’s Scriptural? No.

My only claim was that YES, they were found in the original Hebrew. St. Jerome and Martin Luther didn’t realize this fact at the time of their reasoning.
 
Catholics have seven extra books in their Bible. These books are called “deuterocanonical” They are in the Old Testament. (The New Testament is the same for both Catholics and Protestants.)

The books are: Sirach, Tobit, Wisdom, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, and Baruch, (and longer versions of Daniel and Esther)

I believe Catholics added these books as a counter measure against the split caused by Martin Luther.
…um…no. Catholics did not add these books, the Old Testament was based on the Septuagint at the time of Christ.

It was about 70 years later that Jews removed some of the books (though not all) and then 14 or 1500 or so years later Martin Luther removed the seven books, he also moved 4 New Testament books, but then later returned the New Testament books to their original order, while not returning the removed books.

Some say this is because the original Christians used the Greek version of the septuagint while Jews and Protestants went with the Hebrew version; however that would not explain why Daniel, Ester, etc. are in the Jewish Tanakh and not in the Protestant Bible.
 
Thanks for the correction about only three being found, but did I claim that this made the deutero’s Scriptural? No.

My only claim was that YES, they were found in the original Hebrew. St. Jerome and Martin Luther didn’t realize this fact at the time of their reasoning.
But not being written in Hebrew is only one factor. By itself it proves nothing.

Do you have evidence that a Hebrew manuscript of Baruch was found in the dead sea scrolls? I can’t find any where that states a copy in Hebrew was found.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states: “It is indeed true that the Greek literary features of the various sections do not point back with equal force to a Hebrew original.”

And that it is only “probable”.
 
Does your church library contain uninspired Christian writings?
All writings are inspired from somewhere, shouldn’t we look at the entire body of knowledge, rather than let some burn books that others may never get to see because it is their view? The Holy Spirit might guide me to think one thing about a writing, while the Holy Spirit might lead you to another conclusion. Does that mean either of us are wrong?

I don’t think so, it means that God is a mystery and we each may glimpse and glean certain revelations that we are meant to understand or for which we have the capacity to understand.

I think burning books is sad, even books I don’t like or that I may have no use for. Heresy shouldn’t be the argument, at least it isn’t for me, I have much more faith in God than that and in Jesus who founded a Church that nothing can destroy.
 
…um…no. Catholics did not add these books, the Old Testament was based on the Septuagint at the time of Christ.
You have that backwards…
The LXX is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. That means the Septuagint would be based on the Hebrew Bible.
It was about 70 years later that Jews removed some of the books
I know this is false. But I’ll give you a chance to provide proof before I explain why these books were never in the Jewish Bible to begin with.
 
Only three of the deuterocanonical books were found among the Dead Sea scrolls: Tobit, Sirach, and Baruch. The Dead Sea Scrolls included about 650 extra-biblical manuscripts which included uninspired writings such as songs, prayers, commentaries, and many secular works.
The find also contained most books of the Old Testament, meaning that it contained both many Biblical books and extra-biblical books. So you cannot discount Sirach or Tobit or Baruch just because they were among the Dead Sea Scrolls! NotWorthy is right, it does not mean canonicity one way or the other.

I’m kind of still waiting for you to back up the Church adding these books at Trent in light of the volumes of examples of these being in canons from the 4th century forward. Did I miss your answer in here?
 
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