Old Testament versus New Testament

[Chancellor]

Chancellor,
I agree, there are a lot of spiritual lessons there. For instance, when we try to eradicate sin from our lives, if we expect to really live for God in the peace He promised, it has to be total war against sin; no shady alliances with the enemy. Harem warfare, like in the book of Joshua is a fantastic allegory of this, and what happens when you don’t go all out.

It’s really great, though to hear Scripture scholars like Scott Hahn and Jeff Cavins who do not shy away from the literal historical problems, but show why God acts like He does and how it fits into His plan of hope and salvation for humanity.

Thanks Douglas;

I think at the end of the day we would end up at more or less the same place but by two different routes. Any Christian can accept that the whole of both testaments reveal God’s plan. After that there will be much discussion and disagreement as to what that plan is in its details but the basics are in place.

I also agree that Scott Hahn derives good insights from the OT. He might say as you do that he is commenting on the “literal historical problems”. Even this could be agreed on, yes, maybe Hahn is commenting on literal historical problems. This can be totally true without the documents themselves being literally history. I am not saying that there is no accurate history in the OT. I’m just not going to bet my faith on it.

For me it is clear that there is more theological literature in the OT than history. The New Testament, especially the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are true history. The book of Revelation is not intended to be history, but that is another discussion.

Chancellor

 

[PJM]

The Old Testament does not have to be taken as a litteral historical account, but never the less, it does relate the early history of the “chosen ones,” who like us today, often fail God’s just requirements, and are held accountable for their sinful actions.

The orgianl question delt with great great killing and suffering…

We do see the “pure love of God.” In that God’s love can only be “pure” as it is a perfect attribute of God. But “pure love” in but one of many Godly attributes. Others include that God is, and must be, All Just," and “All Wise…”

We cannot accept only those Godly attributes that we like in the present time and thus attempt to limit in some way God’s potential. God allows us to “like” what we like, however this does not alter the reality of God’s wisdom, Justice and Love, as well as all His other perfect attributes.

It is difficult to resist at times, trying to make God fit our idea of who and what He is. That’s why God offers us faith, hope and charity. So we can both cope and grow in our faith practice.

God Bless, PJM

 

[Vernula]

It is difficult to resist at times, trying to make God fit our idea of who and what He is.

I agree. Perhaps we get the wrong impression of God, especially in passages like Deuteronomy 28, by imagining him in human terms. We would be right to think poorly of a man or woman who says to us “love me, or else I’ll do horrible things to you.”

We have to keep in mind that this is not a human being who is speaking to us - it is the One True God, the fundamental reality on which all creation is founded. Since God is the source of all light, love, and goodness, if we turn away from Him, we cut ourselves off from that source, and as a result plunge ourselves by our own free will into their opposites: darkness, hatred, and evil (as God so graphically warns us).

To put it another way, imagine God as the electrical power source, and we as electrical lamps. What he is saying in effect is “if you remain plugged into me you shall enjoy light and heat, but if you decide to pull your own lead out of the wall (our free-will act) you will be plunged into utter darkness and cold.” What happens is a natural consequence of our free-will actions.

God is the source of all goodness. We cannot find lasting happiness by turning away from the source of goodness: i.e. God. As the loving Father that he is, he warns us of the consequences of our actions if we cut ourselves off from that goodness. How, then, can we blame him them if, having been warned, we still turn away and as a result bring calamity on ourselves?

Also, since we are created by God, simple justice demands that we do as he requires of us. If we choose to disobey, we incur the penalty for not doing so. God gave us the freedom to choose, yes: but that does not mean we escape scott-free for doing whatever we please. Freedom was given us as a means to gain merit by freely choosing to do the good: i.e obeying God. God could have forced us to obey him, but that would preclude love. Love requires a free act of the will, i.e. having the option to disobey but choosing not to do so.

I hope this helps.

In Christ,
Vernula

 

[Fidelis]

If you haven’t read Jimmy Akin’s take on this, you owe it to yourself to do so. Here is the link to his blog:

Hard Sayings of the Old Testament

 

[PJM]

=Vernula;5914377]I agree. Perhaps we get the wrong impression of God, especially in passages like Deuteronomy 28, by imagining him in human terms. We would be right to think poorly of a man or woman who says to us “love me, or else I’ll do horrible things to you.”

We have to keep in mind that this is not a human being who is speaking to us - it is the One True God, the fundamental reality on which all creation is founded. Since God is the source of all light, love, and goodness, if we turn away from Him, we cut ourselves off from that source, and as a result plunge ourselves by our own free will into their opposites: darkness, hatred, and evil (as God so graphically warns us).

To put it another way, imagine God as the electrical power source, and we as electrical lamps. What he is saying in effect is “if you remain plugged into me you shall enjoy light and heat, but if you decide to pull your own lead out of the wall (our free-will act) you will be plunged into utter darkness and cold.” What happens is a natural consequence of our free-will actions.

God is the source of all goodness. We cannot find lasting happiness by turning away from the source of goodness: i.e. God. As the loving Father that he is, he warns us of the consequences of our actions if we cut ourselves off from that goodness. How, then, can we blame him them if, having been warned, we still turn away and as a result bring calamity on ourselves?

Also, since we are created by God, simple justice demands that we do as he requires of us. If we choose to disobey, we incur the penalty for not doing so. God gave us the freedom to choose, yes: but that does not mean we escape scott-free for doing whatever we please. Freedom was given us as a means to gain merit by freely choosing to do the good: i.e obeying God. God could have forced us to obey him, but that would preclude love. Love requires a free act of the will, i.e. having the option to disobey but choosing not to do so.

I hope this helps.

In Christ,
Vernula

Welcome to The Forum!

Very well done. Thanks!

 

[Vernula]

Welcome to The Forum!

Very well done. Thanks!

Thanks PJM! It’s good to be here!

God bless,
Vernula

 

[richardeekw]

O**.T. Written over (800-1000 yrs.) N.T… Written over (60-80 yrs)**

The After-Life

In the Old Testament (the Hebrew Scriptures) there is a development in the understanding and the acceptance of the ‘Áfter-life’, heaven and hell. (which includes the beliefs of the Sadducees and the Pharisees
–The theology (Faith seeking Understanding) of heaven and hell more pronounced in the New Testament.

A good understanding of the historical development of such understanding and theology of the after-life is important in attempting to understand the mind of the human authors writing of the Inspired texts, (e.g. in the Book of Deuteronomy, God is depicted as a Law Giver, a Judge rather than in the New Testament understanding that God is Love).

We must understand the THEOLOGY OF GOD in the Hebrew Scriptures in order to understand the behavior and understanding of the People of the Old Testament.
(e.g. the Sadducees do not believe in angels, the afterlife etc. while the Jews believe in all of them)

The Belief of the Time

 The Bible does not address the questions which Science addresses.
 The experiences and beliefs of the people as Inspired Religious Truths.
 Belief in After-life.

The Process of Revelation
 That God is ‘love’ (agapao)
o In the O.T. especially in the Book of Deuteronomy, God is depicted
 Not as Father but as the ONE GOD who is a JUDGE and GIVER OF LAWS with a covenanted people ISRAEL.
 A God who creates all but choose and love Israel to save.
 There is no Salvation for those other than the Jewish people (the chosen people.)
 That the mystery of suffering has its purpose other than sin.
 The idea of Hell
o In the O.T. the idea of hell is not understood until 300-400 years before the coming of Jesus.
 They did not believe in an afterlife.
 Later a few liberal Jewish people began to believe that ‘some good Gentiles may be saved with the Jews.
 About 200 years before Jesus, Jews began to believe that all will rise from the dead.
 The question of Judgment & hell began to to arise.
 To understand ‘heaven’ one has to compare with ‘hell’. That is how it all began. (e.g. To understand light, compare it with darkness, good, compare with evil etc)