Old Testament - war, murder etc

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BlindSheep

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I’ve just been wondering how it is possible that so many things God commanded the Israelites to do in the OT are considered intrinsically evil by the Church. Some examples - unjust war, murder of innocent people, child sacrifice (Abraham & Isaac), mutilation (circumcistion) among others.
 
Your question is a “have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife” question, top to bottom.

Why do you say that God ordered the Israelites to engage in an “unjust” war?

Why do you say that God ordered “innocent” people murdered?

Normally, we are not supposed to judge human beings. YOU judge GOD HIMSELF!

Sheesh! Have a little humility!

Also, God ORDERED Isaac’s sacrifice, but not for the purpose of having it carried out! He knew that Isaac was perfectly safe!

One of the LESSONS of the plaintewxt-level aspect of the story is that ABRAHAM DIDN’T DO PRECISELY THE KIND OF JUDGING OF GOD YOU DO IN POST #1!

And circumcision isn’t “mutilation.” How do YOU know that God didn’t provide men with foreskins FOR THE PRECISE PURPOSE OF HAVING HEBREW/JEWISH MEN CIRCUMCIZED, SO THAT THEY WOULD CARRY UPON THEIR OWN FLESH A PICTURE OF THE ONE WHO WOULD BE STRIPPED (when the foreskin is removed from the male) AND BLOODIED (when cutting it off bloodies the male)?

Could it be that you aren’t all-knowing like God?
 
There is no need to yell. I’m not attacking God or the Bible or Christianity. I am Catholic, and I believe that God is good. Note that I said “things that seem to be evil”, not “are evil” and “according to the Church” not “according to me”. I am just struggling to understand how God’s commands in the OT can be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church. I believe they can be, somehow, and I just want to know how. As far as I know, starting a war in order to get land would be considered an unjust war by the Church, and killing the children, even the babies, of the conquered people would be considered wrong according to the Church, yet God commanded both of these. Regarding circumcision, the Church has called it immoral.
catholicsagainstcircumcision.org/
Regarding Abraham - if someone hears voices telling him to kill his son, would you assume it was a command from God? Or not?
So, does anyone have an answer? Again, I’m not looking for an argument, I just want to understand this better.
 
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BlindSheep:
Regarding circumcision, the Church has called it immoral.
catholicsagainstcircumcision.org/
I totally disagree, The Catholic Church has never come out and called circumcision immoral. This website you referenced DOES NOT speak for the magesterium of the Church. Refer to the Catechism, which is official teaching, not some website with a specific purpose and agenda. The church leaves it up to the individual’s conscience. THe catechism is almost silent on it except a description and significance to precursing the sacraments of the church.
 
That website contains quotes from popes about circumcision, if you care to read them. I could go find them and post them when I get a chance.
My question wasn’t about circumcision, though. Can’t anyone answer my question?
 
The fact that you describe God as ordering crimes suggests you are sticking to the literal level, which Catholics do not and should not do.

If you envision Yahweh as having a speaking voice, and if you envision Yahweh as literally having his feelings hurt by Israel, then your understanding of God is outside the teaching of the Church Doctors, who tell us that God is immutable, infinite, and perfect. If God were to have feelings, or seek revenge, He would not be immutable.

I don’t know if you’ve ever thought about the different levels of scripture, but maybe you might read the Vatican II document Dei Verbum for insight. Or better yet, read St. Thomas Aquinas, or St. Augustine.

The upshot is, many intelligent people have asked the exact same questions; and there are sound answers but you need to appropriate them yourself through sincere study.
 
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adnauseum:
The fact that you describe God as ordering crimes suggests you are sticking to the literal level, which Catholics do not and should not do.
If you envision Yahweh as having a speaking voice,
Yes, I do - but how is this relevent? Either the commands came from God or they didn’t. God giving Moses the Ten Commandments is described this way, and we all recognise them as coming from God (whether audibly or not)
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adnauseum:
and if you envision Yahweh as literally having his feelings hurt by Israel,
I don’t, and I never said I did.
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adnauseum:
then your understanding of God is outside the teaching of the Church Doctors, who tell us that God is immutable, infinite, and perfect.
How does this prevent Him from speaking?
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adnauseum:
If God were to have feelings, or seek revenge, He would not be immutable.
I don’t understand. I never said God was seeking revenge. I just asked why He is described as commanding these things, I didn’t speculate that he was “having feelings”…
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adnauseum:
I don’t know if you’ve ever thought about the different levels of scripture, but maybe you might read the Vatican II document Dei Verbum for insight. Or better yet, read St. Thomas Aquinas, or St. Augustine.
I’m familiar with the concept. How would you apply it to the passages I mentioned?
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adnauseum:
The upshot is, many intelligent people have asked the exact same questions; and there are sound answers but you need to appropriate them yourself through sincere study.
Well, excuse me for asking! :rolleyes:
 
You have to be more specific, blind sheep. If you can tell me the specific passages, I can try work them out for you.

As for circumcision, think of it this way. As Catholics, we have some marks that differentiate us from the people around us. We makes signs of the Cross, wear scapulars, etc etc. Circumcision in a way prefigures this. It was the way the Israelites began to santify their covenant with God and to differentiate (or “mark”) themselves as different from their surrounding peoples. They did something somewhat painful to themselves, just as we do when we try to mortify our flesh for God’s sake. Circumcision though, is now no longer necessary as a component of Christian living. As we all know, Paul speaks out many times against this. We are to be “circumcized of heart”. We are to live with God in our hearts, minds and bodies everyday. There can be no limit to God’s influence in our lives. That is our covenant in flesh.

As for the Sacrifice of Isaac, it prefigures the sacrifice of Jesus. Just like circumcision, it was a way God tested Abraham’s commitment to himself. One of the important facts of the Old Testament that people seem to forget when they study it, is that God made it so the Israelites would love Him and be loyal to Him not for the things he did for them (though he promised them wealth and happy lives in the land if they followed him) but because he is God, and Love Himself. That should be enough. God would keep nothing from us. He gave his son. He sought out whether or not Abraham would do the same. He did. Abraham held nothing back, and thus, God began the covenant with him that lasts down to today. We are Abraham’s spiritual descendants. We reap the rewards of his obedience.

Thats the other point. In the modern world, especially in America, we tend to forget how much God desires us to be obedient… even when it’s difficult. And thats really the lynchpin of the whole situation. God is love. He will always pick the most merciful option, and his plan will not be frustrated. He asks us, by virtue of our free will to cooperate with Him. It is because the Israelites did, and circumcized themselves, and since Abraham did and did not hold back his only legitimate son, that today we reap the spiritual rewards and can boast of the closest relationship with the most loving God there is.

Thanks,
Nik
 
Blindsheep,

I gave you a very sincere answer and you rejected it in a very mean-spirited way. Thus ends my contibution.

Good luck to you in what it is you are searching for.
 
No reason to yell at blindsheep
He has asked a very common and very old question

The question has probably been answered a long time ago but that is no reason to smack him down

It is not news that there are events in the OT that don’t seem right to modern eyes.

And I have seen these exact questions asked by both ardent believers and hostile skeptics alike

IIRC some of early splinter sects and the Gnostics even envisioned the God of the OT as a separate, lesser, God

as for circumcision being a matter of free will…I don’t recall anyone asking ME about it :eek:
 
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BlindSheep:
That website contains quotes from popes about circumcision, if you care to read them. I could go find them and post them when I get a chance.
My question wasn’t about circumcision, though. Can’t anyone answer my question?
I reviewed the websites and I found quotes from only three popes.

The first is from St. Peter, Chapter 15 of Acts, with which we should all be familiar. St. Peter did not declare circumcision immoral. Rather, he revealed that the Church should not require Christians, especially Gentiles, to become Jewish, observe Mosaic Law and observe circumcision.

The second is more forceful. Pope Eugenius IV in his bull Cantata Domino declares that the Church:
firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the Old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our Lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the Passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ’s passion until the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.
quoted from ¶ 712 of Fr. Denzinger’s The Sources of Catholic Dogma (B. Herder & Co. 1957)(italics not in the original text). The rest of that paragraph goes on to discuss the Church’s rules on baptism. I’m not a theologian, but it appears from the discussion preceding the italicized sentence, that Pope Eugenio sought to prohibit Christians from following Mosaic law. I would like to see the Church further clarify the force of Pope Eugenio’s declaration, but I think it’s safe to say that His Holiness prohibited religious circumcision, not medical circumcision.

Finally, there’s a quote from Pope John Paul II from The Gospel of Life
Whatever is opposed to life itself, such as any type of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia, or willful self-destruction, whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, torments inflicted on body or mind, attempts to coerce the will itself; whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where people are treated as mere instruments of gain rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others like them are infamies indeed. They poison human society, and they do more harm to those who practice them than to those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are a supreme dishonor to the Creator.
In the above quote, however, Pope John Paul II does not specifically address the issue of circumcision. Whether his denunciation of mutilation applies to circumcision is a matter of interpretation, he makes specific exception for medical necessity.

So, only one Pope has expressly declared circumcision immoral, and I’m not certain that his declaration would apply in every circumstance.

Moreover, the two theologians who are quoted as saying that elective circumcision is against Catholic law, Fr. Dietzen and Fr. Healy, both rely upon their lay understanding of medical science.

IMHO, Catholic parents who have their sons circumcised for religious reasons place their own salvation in jeopardy. I’m not sure that would apply if they have their sons circumcised for purely medical reasons.

God bless you all!
 
Blindsheep,

I appreciate your question about war, etc. I hope some others, maybe even me, can put some more thought into it and answer your question more directly.

In general, though, I would say that God commanded what may seem like cruel atrocities for good reasons that may remain as a mystery to us.

It is not stupid to ask these things. However, God does not always provide us with an intellectual understanding. Instead, He gives us the grace to trust Him through faith. The sacrifice of Isaac is a good example.

God bless you all!
 
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adnauseum:
Blindsheep,

I gave you a very sincere answer and you rejected it in a very mean-spirited way. Thus ends my contibution.

Good luck to you in what it is you are searching for.
adnauseum - I’m sorry, maybe I misunderstood you. Your comment about my needing to find the answers myself came across as sarcasm, as though you were questioning my motivation for asking. I’m honestly just trying to understand the Catholic faith better.
As far as the rest of my response goes, I don’t see how it’s mean-spirited. I was only trying to clarify what I said.
 
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BlindSheep:
There is no need to yell. I’m not attacking God or the Bible or Christianity. I am Catholic, and I believe that God is good. Note that I said “things that seem to be evil”, not “are evil” and “according to the Church” not “according to me”. I am just struggling to understand how God’s commands in the OT can be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church. I believe they can be, somehow, and I just want to know how. As far as I know, starting a war in order to get land would be considered an unjust war by the Church, and killing the children, even the babies, of the conquered people would be considered wrong according to the Church, yet God commanded both of these. Regarding circumcision, the Church has called it immoral.
catholicsagainstcircumcision.org/
Regarding Abraham - if someone hears voices telling him to kill his son, would you assume it was a command from God? Or not?
So, does anyone have an answer? Again, I’m not looking for an argument, I just want to understand this better.
I answered, and you did not see.

(a) Why do you, you mere mortal, define a war commanded by almighty God to be an “unjust” war? What causes your insight and vocabulary and moral sense to be superior to that of God, Himself? When did the pot acquire the right to give instructions to the potmaker? See Isaiah 45:9.

(b) God did not REALLY order Isaac’s sacrifice, did He? In other words, AT NO MOMENT IN TIME WAS ISAAC IN DANGER BECAUSE OF GOD’s COMMAND. God knew this.

(c) It is interesting that in judging God guilty of an unjust war, you fail the test Abraham passed, and then miss the point: He did not question God. You do.

(d) And circumcision isn’t “mutilation.” How do YOU know that God didn’t provide men with foreskins FOR THE PRECISE PURPOSE OF HAVING HEBREW/JEWISH MEN CIRCUMCIZED, SO THAT THEY WOULD CARRY UPON THEIR OWN FLESH A PICTURE OF THE ONE WHO WOULD BE STRIPPED (when the foreskin is removed from the male) AND BLOODIED (when cutting it off bloodies the male)?

My use of upper case letters up above is not “yelling” at you, but inflection, to convey meaning.

The printed word, in these brief posts, lacks the meaning borne by the sound of speech. Consequently, I make up for it, occasionally, with caps. I’m sorry if you thought that I was yelling at you.
 
I for one am glad BlindSheep asked the question because in everyone’s relpies, I was able to satisfy my own thirst for knowledge. I am reading the OT and had similiar questions but was unsure how to ask.

Thanks to everyone who posted a relpy.

Thanks BlindSheep!
 
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