Old Testament

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Alec said that Newton used an approximation that wasn’t strictly true, that the solar system is an isolated system of bodies … but then he goes on to qualify his agreement that it is not strictly true (hence Alec is NOT claiming it is an isolated system of bodies) but that the influence of the rest of the solar system on relative motions within the solar system are vanishingly small.

Note that nowhere did Alec actually claim, or even imply, that our solar system was indeed an “isolated system.”

Yet Sungensis goes on to argue that is not an isolated system, which ironically puts him in agreement with Alec, but he claims that his reasoning proves Alec wrong!

(continued)
 
OH NO!! 😦

Aargh! I just spent a great deal of time writing a non-technical illustration that anyone should be able to understand, of exactly what logic was being used here and why it’s deceptive. Then it got eaten by the computer gods, apparently. I’m not sure I have time to reconstruct it now, but I will plan on doing that later.

Alan
 
=AlanFromWichita;7645970]So if they are both a point of view, then why do you say that heliocentrism is wrong, and the geocentrism has been “proven as a scientific fact?”
Thanks for pointing that out and I will gladly back off from saying it is a scientific fact and say that geocentrism is the traditional teaching of the Church.
Oh, I’m open to new ideas. I find them fascinating, even if they seem wacky at first.
That said, I’m a slow reader and there are other things already in the waiting list for me to read. You’ve read the books. Is there not something from them you can summarize, or share, or are there snippets of them online you can point us to?
My best suggestion is to read the books and watch the computer animation.
To what biased source do you refer? :confused:
My biased source is Scripture and Sacred Tradtion.
If you are not qualified to debate it, then how are you qualified to make the assertion that the vast majority of the world’s scientific community is wrong – and that to disagree with you is to have a closed mind?
The vast majority of the scientific community is teaching what is a theory and claiming it to be scientific fact. They have a motive for doing so as can be seen by this quote from Edwin Hubble in Dr. Sungensis and Bennetts book:
"Such a condition ( Geocentrism) would imply that we occupy a unique position in the universe…This hypothesis cannot be disproved but it is unwelcome…Therefore we disregard this possibility…the unwelcomed position of a favored location must be avoided at all costs…such a favored position is intolerable.”

A favored position in the universe would imply that there is a God that placed the earth in the center of the universe and for atheistic scientists that would be intolerable.
I’m waiting. Tell me one fact or experimental result or even theory that supports what you are saying.
The proof lies with those who support heliocentrism. Geocentrism has always been believed. Galileo rejected his own theory before his death.
With your comments, I wonder if you are suggesting the the vast majority of scientists who do not believe in geocentrism are idiots?
They are not idiots but they are people who have accepted heliocentrism as a fact without seriously considering the other option. The scientisits that accept Geocentrism are converts from heliocentrism. They all once believed in it and now reject it after actually doing the research.
Now, just because 100,000 people believe one thing and 10 believe the opposite, doesn’t make the 100,000 right. It does place some burden of proof on the 10 to do more than make statements disparaging the beliefs of the 100,000, if they want anybody outside their circle to even consider taking them seriously
.
I completely disagree with that. The long standing belief is Geocentrism. The majority who reject it have the burden of proof to disprove it and they have utterly failed.
I’d love to, but I’m afraid it’s low enough on priority that I probably won’t any time soon.
If you were really interested it seems to me you would make it a priority to read the books.
OK, to meet you part way I did some searching on YouTube and other places via Google and found a web site about the book “Galileo was Wrong.” From there I navigated to a site where there was a critique by Dr. Sungensis of a work by an Alec MacAndrew regarding geocentrism.
Thanks for the link

I
 
=AlanFromWichita;7645978]Alec said that Newton used an approximation that wasn’t strictly true, that the solar system is an isolated system of bodies … but then he goes on to qualify his agreement that it is not strictly true (hence Alec is NOT claiming it is an isolated system of bodies) but that the influence of the rest of the solar system on relative motions within the solar system are vanishingly small.
Note that nowhere did Alec actually claim, or even imply, that our solar system was indeed an “isolated system.”
Yet Sungensis goes on to argue that is not an isolated system, which ironically puts him in agreement with Alec, but he claims that his reasoning proves Alec wrong!
I think Sungesis makes a valid point when he says, “Alec knows that if the earth is in the center of the universe and was created in six days, his atheism has been destroyed and he will have to face the God of Christianity as his judge. That is too frightening a thought for him, and thus his motivation to discredit both geocentrism and creationism.”

And

“The real truth here is that Alec needs to plant in the reader’s mind the idea that our Sun-Earth system is an “isolated system,” as he wants to call it, for then he can succeed in applying Newtonian mechanics and making it work for heliocentrism (or whatever non-geocentric system Alec believes in.”
 
I think Sungesis makes a valid point when he says, “Alec knows that if the earth is in the center of the universe and was created in six days, his atheism has been destroyed and he will have to face the God of Christianity as his judge. That is too frightening a thought for him, and thus his motivation to discredit both geocentrism and creationism.”

And

“The real truth here is that Alec needs to plant in the reader’s mind the idea that our Sun-Earth system is an “isolated system,” as he wants to call it, for then he can succeed in applying Newtonian mechanics and making it work for heliocentrism (or whatever non-geocentric system Alec believes in.”
I did see that in the article, and it is not surprising that anybody who has an agenda sees the person on the opposite side as having nefarious motives.

Here’s the problem with that. You asked me to check out something from this guy Sungesis. I didn’t purchase the DVD but I read a different article by him.

In the article I read, Sungesis was completely dishonest in the way he made his case. And in fact, he didn’t make his case. I wish I hadn’t lost an hour’s worth of work earlier because I had detailed out exactly how Sungesis argued in a blatantly deceptive manner.

What if Alec did have an emotional stake in being right on the issue? Does not Sungesis?

Regardless of their internal thoughts, I’m basing my opinion on an elementary perusal of the actual arguments the two men wrote. Sungesis’s responses to Alec’s writing was so devious that I cannot give him any credibility whatsoever.

Sigh. OK, I will try to recreate (maybe I can make it shorter this time) my analysis which will show, in a way understandable by anybody, that Sungesis did not effective refute the points he claimed he had.

Peace,
Alan
 
First, I will show that Sungesis failed to debunk Alec. Then I will give an analogy that employs the exact same logic in a situation that non-technical people can understand.

Here is the quote again, from the article where Sungesis was criticizing statements made by Alex.

With this single example, we can see that the arguments of Sungesis must be carefully scrutinized because they may include false claims of logical victories.
Alec: Newton reasonably approximated the solar system as an isolated system of bodies (this is not strictly true, but the forces and influence of the rest of the universe on relative motions within the solar system are vanishingly small on the scale of years).
R. Sungenis: If that is true, then why does modern physics believe that the sun revolves around the Milky Way galaxy at the tremendous speed of 500 miles per second in order to escape the gravity at the center of the Milky Way? If the “forces and influence” is so “vanishingly small,” then the sun (and consequently our “solar system”) should be affected very little by a neighboring group of stars. But the truth is, our “solar system” is so greatly affected by those stars that the sun has to travel at break neck speed to avoid crashing into the center of the Milky Way. And we are also told by modern science that the Milky Way itself is revolving around even greater systems of galaxies, and so on and so one. The bottom line is this: there is no place in the universe that is unaffected by the gravity of the stars, and this gravity is not “vanishingly small,” otherwise, modern science could not say that smaller systems are being forced to revolve around larger systems.
OK, Alec says Newton is reasonable in claiming that movement within our solar system can be modeled as if it were an isolated system. Both he and Newton acknowledged it isn’t a 100% accurate model, but the relative motions within the solar system are affected very little by the stars.

So Sungenis replies that the sun is zooming around in the universe at break neck speed. Since that motion is due to the influence of the stars, then it cannot be said that the motion of the sun (and therefore our solar system) is not influenced significantly by the stars.

Here’s the rub. The statement made by both men are correct, but they have nothing to do with each other.

By definition, relative motion within the solar system is completely separated from the motion of the solar system within the universe.

Is that crazy or what?

Alec says the relative motions within the solar system are affected very little by nearby stars.

Sungenis counters by saying the motion of the solar system as a whole, is indeed significantly affected by nearby stars. That statement is correct, and Alec’s statement made no claim against that fact. That was just the distraction. Then comes the direct falsehood: Sungenis makes the absurd claim that he has thus proven Alec’s statement wrong! How? He said that because the solar system’s motion depends on nearby stars, then Alec’s model of an isolated system does not work. Alec didn’t say anything about the motion of the solar system; he specifically stated it was the motion inside the solar system he was talking about.

If that didn’t make sense because of the technical nature of the subject, I have an analogy that will illustrate exactly what’s going on. I’ll give it in the next post. 🙂

Alan
 
I did see that in the article, and it is not surprising that anybody who has an agenda sees the person on the opposite side as having nefarious motives.

Regardless of their internal thoughts, I’m basing my opinion on an elementary perusal of the actual arguments the two men wrote. Sungesis’s responses to Alec’s writing was so devious that I cannot give him any credibility whatsoever.

Sigh. OK, I will try to recreate (maybe I can make it shorter this time) my analysis which will show, in a way understandable by anybody, that Sungesis did not effective refute the points he claimed he had.

Peace,
Alan
Please do give me your analysis when you have the time. In the meantime I am curious of how you would answer these questions that I asked earlier.
.
Do you believe that man evolved from lower life forms?. Science teaches this as a fact not as a theory.Do you go with Scripture and Tradition or science?
Do you believe in the “big bang?” If so, where is the proof?
Which “theory” of the creation of the moon do you hold to? Fission, capture, formation with Earth as a double planet or collision?
 
Do you believe that man evolved from lower life forms?. Science teaches this as a fact not as a theory.Do you go with Scripture and Tradition or science?
Do you believe in the “big bang?” If so, where is the proof?
Which “theory” of the creation of the moon do you hold to? Fission, capture, formation with Earth as a double planet or collision?
I neither believe or disbelieve that man evolved from lower life forms. I simply don’t know. I’ve heard arguments of macroevolution v microevolution, some make sense, some make me scratch my head. Since I believe Genesis is figurative, I don’t see that evolution theory poses a problem for the Biblical story. I do believe that microevolution occurs. I make no claim about macroevolution because I have no expertise in that area and I don’t want to claim I know how God did things. I do not know what the Church officially teaches on this. (Like my SD director suggested to me once, read Job 37-40).

I believe the “big bang” is just as much an article of faith as any other method. That said, I don’t think the big band contradicts church teachings; in fact once I read that a Vatican scientist either came up with theory or at least promoted it – I don’t remember which. I do remember it saying that the big bang does not understate God’s power and beauty, but actually demonstrates it.

So maybe God did design the universe starting with one little very solid chunk and blowing it into everything in the universe. That poses no problem for me. This is where atheists fail on this subject, though: even if the big bang happened, who created the initial matter and energy to make it happen, and who wrote the rules for how physics behaved in the first place?

Science knows quite a bit of useful information on how physical objects behave. What it can’t answer is why do they behave as they do, and where do they come from. What was there before the big bang – and how did it get there?

About the creation of the moon, I have never thought about it before. I find your question interesting, but I have no answer.

Alan
 
OK.

I’m sitting at a dining table in a train, with a person who believed he was the center of the universe, and that he didn’t move but everything else did.

This train left Chicago at 9 am, and is heading toward Cleveland at 70 mph. 😃

(can you tell I used to teach College Algebra?)

OK, to the dialog inside the dining car:

Me: we are two feet apart, sitting at this table. That has not changed for the last 10 minutes, and won’t change until we finish our meal and get up. Meanwhile, here we are, staying the same distance, and not moving toward or away from each other.

He: That is absurd. The train is too moving. It is moving at 70 mph. You are inside the train. How can you say you are not moving?

Me: You are right. The train is moving down the track. I said nothing about the way the train is moving. I’m talking about us, sitting at this table, inside the train. The train, the table, you, and I are all moving toward Cleveland at break neck speed, as you say. I never said otherwise. I did say that we are not getting any closer or farther from each other. It’s two feet across this table and that is not changing at all. If the train were sitting still, that would still be the case. In fact, the track is so smooth, have you looked out the window lately? I can’t tell from in this dining car with no windows, how fast we are going.

He: Two things. One, so you admit that you are moving. Then your claim that you are not is false. Second, I’m not moving.

Me: I never said I weren’t moving. I said we aren’t moving around inside this train car. If we were, the server wouldn’t know to which table to bring our food.

Me again: Hey! You just said you aren’t moving. Please explain.

He: I am the center of the universe. It is so because I’ve always believed that to be true. You, the train, Chicago, and Cleveland, are all moving around me.

Me: Oooh, K! Ummm, I can see how, from where you’re sitting, it looks like the world is going backwards, so I understand that your point of view on everything is always from the perspective of your own observations. So you see the world race by backwards through the window (in the other cars) and say the world is going backwards? Well I say the world is not moving and the train, including you in it, are moving forward.

He: You are a liar, and I know that because I know you take it very personally to be shown that you are wrong. So much so that it is necessary for you to get others to believe falsehoods like the whopper you tried to tell me. I am at the center, you are not; it is not my opinion but God-given, objective fact. You do not understand that, so you are making up lies saying you are not moving when in fact you are moving toward Cleveland.

Me: Is there a doctor in the house? I have a bit of a headache, and my friend may need some help, too.

Alan
 
I am sitting in the center of a merry- go- round full of people. Everyone is revolving around me.I never move yet others come into my view. So it is with the earth.
 
I am sitting in the center of a merry- go- round full of people. Everyone is revolving around me.I never move yet others come into my view. So it is with the earth.
With only a very slight rewording, I could agree. Just add the words, “from my point of view,” or perhaps the words “relative to the center of the merry go round” just after the word “move.”

Without the extra words, as it stands, your example is not valid.

Why? By the same logic Sungenis used in the failed attempt to discredit Alec, except in this case the logic would apply.

You say you are not moving. I say, yes, you are moving because you’re in a solar system that is racing around the universe at breakneck speed.

You may also say your center is not moving with respect to the earth, or that, as Alec tried to say, not moving relative to the rotating part of the merry-go-round. Also in order to claim you are stationary with respect to the earth, you must specify that by “moving” you mean translation only – not rotation. If rotation counts as “movement” then you are moving with respect to the earth. Unless you think the earth revolves around you, in which case we’re back to the frame of reference issue.

Alan
 
Why should it be “baffling?” Notice that the passage does not say “Scripture presents the work of the creator symbolically as “a succession of six days.” If it said that you would have a point. But notice where the passage places the quotation marks. It is on “works” and “rests”. That is what the Catechism is saying is symbolic. God does not “work” or “rest”…

Because Scripture and Tradition teaches a literal six days of creation the Catechism cannot say otherwise and you are the one who is changing its meaning.
So you say it’s six days, right? Do you think six actually means six? If so, do you think one means seven?

I ask this because if you are going to insist on literal reading of Genesis, then please answer the following question: How many pairs of each of the “clean” animals and birds did God tell Noah to bring into the ark? Multiple choice: a) one. b) seven. c) both because one and seven are actually the same number (although in other parts of Genesis six always mean six and definitely not five or seven). d) neither. e) not enough information, f) Genesis is figurative… they don’t conflict. g) none of the above.
Gen 6:
18
But with you I will establish my covenant; you and your sons, your wife and your sons’ wives, shall go into the ark.
19
Of all other living creatures you shall bring two into the ark, one male and one female, that you may keep them alive with you.
20
Of all kinds of birds, of all kinds of beasts, and of all kinds of creeping things, two of each shall come into the ark with you, to stay alive.
Gen 7:
1
Then the LORD said to Noah: "Go into the ark, you and all your household, for you alone in this age have I found to be truly just.
2
Of every clean animal, take with you seven pairs, a male and its mate; and of the unclean animals, one pair, a male and its mate;
3
likewise, of every clean bird of the air, seven pairs, a male and a female, and of all the unclean birds, one pair, a male and a female. Thus you will keep their issue alive over all the earth.
So which do you choose? If you believe in a literal reading, you must pick “c.” If, instead, you choose g) then please explain.
Which “theory” of the creation of the moon do you hold to? Fission, capture, formation with Earth as a double planet or collision?
Which “revealed literal truth” of the story of Noah and the ark so you hold to? Genesis 6, or Genesis 7?

Alan
 
=AlanFromWichita;7647749]With only a very slight rewording, I could agree. Just add the words, “from my point of view,” or perhaps the words “relative to the center of the merry go round” just after the word "move."Without the extra words, as it stands, your example is not valid. Why? By the same logic Sungenis used in the failed attempt to discredit Alec, except in this case the logic would apply.You say you are not moving. I say, yes, you are moving because you’re in a solar system that is racing around the universe at breakneck speed.
How do you know we are in a solar system that is moving? When has that be proven? That is simply an assumption.
In my example, I am NOT moving. Let’s say I am standing in the middle of a group of 10 people. They begin to move in a circle around me. They are moving and I am not yet all of them will come into my view.
Geocentrism states that the earth is still. It does not move. It does not rotate. You will immediately say this is insane. But why? In 1887 an experiment took place that was to prove that the earth moves called the **Michelson-Morley **experiment. This was such a failure that it was tried over and over. Instead of accepting the conclusion of the experiment, the earth is at rest, Einstein was forced to come up with an explanation and Einstein’s theory of relativity was born.

Here are some interesting quotes from scientists on the failure of Michelson-Morley

Bernard Jaffee: The data of the interferometers were almost unbelievable…There was only one possible conclusion to draw, that the earth was at rest. This, of course, was preposterous.”

Adolf Baker: The failure of Michelson-Morley to observe different speeds of light at different times of the year suggested that the Earth must be “at rest”.

Arthur Otis: Such an idea ( the earth at rest) was not considered seriously, since it would in effect mean that our Earth occupied the omnipotent position in the universe, with all heavenly bodies paying homage by revolving around it.”

Do some research on the Michelson-Morley experiment. In *Galileo Was Wrong *Sungenis and Bennett go through the experiments that have ALL failed to prove the earth moves. Since it can’t be proven science has simply adopted this view because as scientist Edwin Hubble stated, " Such a condition ( Geocentrism) would imply that we occupy a unique position in the universe…This hypothesis cannot be disproved , but it is unwelcome…Therefore we disregard this possibility…the unwelcomed position of a favored location must be avoided at all costs…such a favored position is intolerable.”

The vast majority of scientists simply cannot admit that God put us here at the center of the universe and was specifically designed and has a special significance.
 
So you say it’s six days, right? Do you think six actually means six? If so, do you think one means seven?I ask this because if you are going to insist on literal reading of Genesis, then please answer the following question: How many pairs of each of the “clean” animals and birds did God tell Noah to bring into the ark? Multiple choice: a) one. b) seven. c) both because one and seven are actually the same number (although in other parts of Genesis six always mean six and definitely not five or seven). d) neither. e) not enough information, f) Genesis is figurative… they don’t conflict. g) none of the above.
Which “revealed literal truth” of the story of Noah and the ark so you hold to? Genesis 6, or Genesis 7?

Alan
The reason I believe in a literal 6 days is because while the word “day” can mean an indefinite time and not 24 hours such as “in the day of the Lord”, the words “evening and morning” always mean 24 hours.
“Evening and morning” in scripture never means an indefinite length of time. In the creation account Genesis says “And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.” Since Genesis combines day with evening and morning then it literally means 24 hours.

Regarding Genesis 6 and 7 I’m not sure of your point. What do you mean when you say “ one and seven are actually the same number?.” One literally means one pair and seven literally means 7 pairs.
The Jews distinguish between clean and unclean animals. I went to this site to see what is clean and unclean.
ucg.org/booklets/CU/bibledesignate.htm

“God states that cud-chewing animals with split hooves can be eaten (Leviticus 11:3; Deuteronomy 14:6). These specifically include the cattle, sheep, goat, deer and gazelle families (Deuteronomy 14:4-5). He also lists such animals as camels, rabbits and pigs as being unclean, or unfit to eat (Leviticus 11:4-8). He later lists such “creeping things” as moles, mice and lizards as unfit to eat (verses 29-31), as well as four-footed animals with paws (cats, dogs, bears, lions, tigers, etc.) as unclean (verse 27).
He tells us that salt and freshwater fish with fins and scales may be eaten (verses 9-12), but water creatures without those characteristics (catfish, lobsters, crabs, shrimp, mussels, clams, oysters, squid, octopi, etc.) should not be eaten.
God also lists birds and other flying creatures that are unclean for consumption (verses 13-19). He identifies carrion eaters and birds of prey as unclean, plus ostriches, storks, herons and bats.
Birds such as chickens, turkeys and pheasants are not on the unclean list and therefore can be eaten. Insects, with the exception of locusts, crickets and grasshoppers, are listed as unclean (verses 20-23).”

There are no contradictions in scripture if that what you are trying for.
 
Regarding the interpretation of the creation story in the First Book of Moses, this very website tells us what Catholics must believe on the subject:

catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp

To summarize it, we must believe (1) that God created the universe out of nothing, and that (2) Adam and Eve were the first people. We can believe in evolution as espoused by Darwin, but we must believe that the souls of Adam and Eve were spontaneous creations by God and that is what made them the first people.

And on the issue of creation, we must take into account the words of Pope John Paul II:
Cosmogony and cosmology have always aroused great interest among peoples and religions. The Bible itself speaks to us of the origin of the universe and its make-up, not in order to provide us with a scientific treatise but in order to state the correct relationships of man with God and with the universe. Sacred Scripture wishes simply to declare that the world was created by God, and in order to teach this truth it expresses itself in the terms of the cosmology in use at the time of the writer. The Sacred Book likewise wishes to tell men that the world was not created as the seat of the gods, as was taught by other cosmogonies and cosmologies, but was rather created for the service of man and the glory of God. Any other teaching about the origin and make-up of the universe is alien to the intentions of the Bible, which does not wish to teach how heaven was but how one goes to heaven.
You can read JPII’s entire speech here.

My original question was not regarding creation, however. It was regarding later Bible stories such as Cain and Abel, Noah’s Ark, and the Tower of Babel. Must we take them as literal history, as metaphor, or as parable. I would especially like to know if the Catechism has anything to say on the subject.
 
Must we take them as literal history, as metaphor, or as parable. I would especially like to know if the Catechism has anything to say on the subject.
We are bound to receive the Biblical texts in the manner in which the author intended. I understand that this is not the easy answer you might have been looking for, but the Bible has many genres which need to be considered. If I were to write figuratively, for example, and you interpreted my writing non-figuratively, then you’d be making a mistake. However, if I was indeed conveying historical events and you interpreted them as merely fiction, then you’d be equally incorrect.

I recommend this article on the infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture, and what it means:
What does it mean that the Bible is inspired and inerrant?

I also recommend you read the following:

The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church
Pontifical Biblical Commission
March 18, 1994
 
How do you know we are in a solar system that is moving? When has that be proven? That is simply an assumption.
I took that directly out of Sungenis’s argument.

Alec said that when considering relative motions inside the solar system, the influence of nearby stars is “vanishingly small.”

Sungenis countered that the sun(and thereby the entire solar system) is affected by the stars a great deal, so much that it is moving around the universe at breakneck speed – 500 miles per second – due to influence from the stars. OK, so far so good.

The next move on Sungenis’ part was the one where I call “foul.” That is, he claimed that because there is significant influence on the sun(and thereby the solar system) this proves Alec wrong – after all, it is absurd to say that the forces on the sun and the solar system are “vanishingly small” when in fact, they are causing motion to the tune of 500 miles per second.

If you didn’t know and understand what Alec had actually claimed, then by itself, out of context, Sungenis’s “counter-claims” in the previous paragraph make sense. The misleading part is that those counter claims do not match the claims made by Alec.

So the real absurdity is Sungenis’s claims against Alec. It’s as if Alec claimed the sun rises in the east, and then Sungenis said, “you are absolutely wrong, because the sun is hotter than the earth.” True statement, but nothing to do with Alec’s claim therefore it has no bearing on Alec’s claims whatsoever.

For Sungenis to claim that his argument does discredit Alec is a sign that either Sungenis is incapable of logical discourse, or that he is biased to the point that he is willing to deceive the public to make his point – presumably because he couldn’t make his point without lying. So you choose which one to believe – either Sungenis has absolutely no clue what he’s saying, or he knows what he’s saying and is being intentionally deceptive. I don’t see any other possibilities, given what he said in this discussion. It is simply not possible to attribute any merit whatsoever to the claim that he even caused a speck of doubt about Alec’s claim.

That’s why I say that, having observed this single argument, I cannot take anything Sungenis says as true without a huge grain of salt.
In my example, I am NOT moving. Let’s say I am standing in the middle of a group of 10 people. They begin to move in a circle around me. They are moving and I am not yet all of them will come into my view.
OK, relative to the earth, you are not moving (rotating, but I’ll get to that later). I’ll grant you that. Relative to your fixed position on earth, yes, the others are moving you. Likewise, they are also going around in a circle with respect to the surface of the earth and you’re not.

Here’s the “but” part. You are not moving w.r.t. the earth, but since the earth is part of the solar system, which btw Sungenis said was moving at 500 mps, then you are, in effect, a passenger on the earth, and since you and the merry-go-round are fixed to the earth, then you and the merry-go-round are also moving around the universe at about 500 mps.

So if you claim you are not moving around (rotating as a separate issue) is true if you limit your “universe” by looking only at whether you are moving along the earth’s surface or not. You are, though, moving at breakneck speed compared to the rest of the universe. If you don’t believe that, then you surely can’t believe Sungenis because I got my figures from him.

Geocentrism states that the earth is still. It does not move. It does not rotate. You will immediately say this is insane. But why? In 1887 an experiment took place that was to prove that the earth moves called the **Michelson-Morley **experiment. This was such a failure that it was tried over and over. Instead of accepting the conclusion of the experiment, the earth is at rest, Einstein was forced to come up with an explanation and Einstein’s theory of relativity was born.

Einstein found that there is no experiment in the world that is possible to distinguish absolute moving in a straight line at a constant speed from absolutely sitting still, as long as the measurements can only be made from inside the reference frame of the object in question. In fact, there is no such thing as “absolutely still” or “absolutely moving at a constant speed in a straight line” unless you define it in reference to some agreed upon external reference frame.

In simpler terms, that means that if you are on a train and the track is straight and smooth, you cannot tell whether you’re moving forward, backward, fast, slow, or sitting still from the way it feels to you. If there are no windows, or the window shades are closed, then you cannot tell by the way it feels whether you are moving or not.

In fact, you can bring any measuring instrument in there that you want, as long as it doesn’t take a reference from something outside the train, that instrument cannot give you the answer either. So from inside the train, with the windows closed, there is no instrument that can detect whether you’re moving down the track or not.

So does that mean no statements can be made about the motion of the train on the track? Not at all. All you have to do is look outside the window. Are the buildings and trees you see out the window racing to the east? Well, if you define yourself or the train as the reference frame, then yes they are indeed. But if you define the reference frame as that of the earth itself, then they are not moving east, you are moving west.

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(continued from last post)

If you bring instruments in with the windows shades open, you can point them toward a window and they will then be able to “see” the motion of the trees and can then tell you what the speed is between the train and the trees – hence the planet. This is because we know that the trees don’t walk around on the surface of the earth.

Or you could use another reference. You could bring in a GPS receiver, and it can tell you which way you are moving relative to satellites stationed in space. Again, for that to work the GPS receiver has to “look” out the window, more formally it has to receive signals sent from a known reference frame outside the train. If it’s a geostationary satellite, then the motion on the earth surface can easily be determined from the signals the instrument receives.
Here are some interesting quotes from scientists on the failure of Michelson-Morley
To make detailed comments, I would have to know the details of and the data produced by their experiment to tell you for sure that those claims are as whacky as they sound. :whacky:

Or if they actually mean something was learned. :newidea:
Do some research on the Michelson-Morley experiment. In *Galileo Was Wrong *Sungenis and Bennett go through the experiments that have ALL failed to prove the earth moves. Since it can’t be proven science has simply adopted this view because as scientist Edwin Hubble stated, " Such a condition ( Geocentrism) would imply that we occupy a unique position in the universe…This hypothesis cannot be disproved , but it is unwelcome…Therefore we disregard this possibility…the unwelcomed position of a favored location must be avoided at all costs…such a favored position is intolerable.”
Sigh. Do I have to do all the work? 😛

OK. Well, I’m not doubting that you have accurately quoted the scientists, pending further investigation. I’ll assume for now you have. If you have, then the conclusions of the experiment are meaningless, except rhetorically, because the whole issue of reference frame, center of mass of the solar system or the universe, and other elements that would be needed to give actual meaning to these statements, are conveniently ignored. My guess is that if I did the research, I’d find that was the case not because you failed to quote that part of their statements, but because they conveniently failed to mention them – because if the statement were given actual meaning they would in fact say nothing in support of the claims they are making against science. Not sure, but I’d bet a steak dinner on it.

Further, like Sungenis, once they made statements that may have been true in a very contrived context that does not model any of the claims that science makes, and thereby convey no actual meaning or proof about any of the claims of science. In fact, if they were honest about the reference frames, assumptions, etc. involved in their experiment, they would find that their results are in fact compatible with what science would have predicted – if they did their experiment carefully and properly, that is.

The fact that the scientists voiced strong opinions about what their results say about science is not compelling. After all, right here in this thread we have sufficient evidence to conclude objectively that Sungenis is either incompetent, delusional, or lying. Whichever is the case, his assertions cannot be trusted.

Unless the other scientists have the integrity and capability that Sungenis lack, then their statements can’t be trusted, either. I’d guess that if we reviewed the experiments you referenced, the claims that were made will be found out to be misleading and meaningless. Not 100% sure, but I’d bet three months of paychecks on it based on what I already know from your quotes and from the exchange between Alec and Sungenis.
The vast majority of scientists simply cannot admit that God put us here at the center of the universe and was specifically designed and has a special significance.
I don’t know how many scientist even believe in God, so I can’t answer that. I do know of scientists who do believe in God, who would agree with me that these men’s results are meaningless and/or misleading.

You don’t have an atheist to see how shallow and silly the claims are of these alleged scientists. Scientists? More like pseudo-scientific hustlers, I can say at this point with high degree of confidence. :twocents:

Anyway, thank you for the debate. I’ve wanted to know for a long time what geocentrism actually claims, and now I have at least an introductory knowledge. 🤓

Please don’t take any of this personally. I appreciate the efforts you are making to bring facts about the geocentrism argument into the discussion, and I like the way you are presenting the case. 👍

However, my hope is that you will be able to see and understand what I am saying, and with an open mind take at least take an honest second look at the claims that are being promulgated by the champions of the geocentrism community. If you do that, all the time I’ve spent on this will be well worth it. If you do that, and still side with them, then I haven’t lost anything, because it will hopefully also benefit the other posters and the lurkers on this thread to see an intelligent debate over this issue – they can make up their own minds what to believe, and whichever way they decide, they may learn some apologetics for their chosen position and the debate may continue. :slapfight:

I’m weary of writing this and I suspect it’s already much too long to post intact, so I’ll defer discussion the rotation issue until some later time TBD. :yawn:

Alan
 
The reason I believe in a literal 6 days is because while the word “day” can mean an indefinite time and not 24 hours such as “in the day of the Lord”, the words “evening and morning” always mean 24 hours.
“Evening and morning” in scripture never means an indefinite length of time. In the creation account Genesis says “And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.” Since Genesis combines day with evening and morning then it literally means 24 hours.
I hear what you’re saying. At this point I neither agree or disagree with it because your point depends on the literal sense of Genesis, which I am calling into question.
Regarding Genesis 6 and 7 I’m not sure of your point. What do you mean when you say “ one and seven are actually the same number?.” One literally means one pair and seven literally means 7 pairs.
Thank you! That’s exactly what I thought… 👍

… and here’s why I’m asking the question. I’ll pare down the Bible verses to only that part that illustrates there is a conflict. If you need the context, here it is, in chapter 6 and in chapter 7.

Genesis 6:19-20: Of all other living creatures you shall bring two into the ark, one male and one female, that you may keep them alive with you. Of all kinds of birds, of all kinds of beasts, and of all kinds of creeping things, two of each shall come into the ark with you, to stay alive.

Genesis 7:2-3: Of every clean animal, take with you seven pairs, a male and its mate; and of the unclean animals, one pair, a male and its mate; likewise, of every clean bird of the air, seven pairs, a male and a female, and of all the unclean birds, one pair, a male and a female. Thus you will keep their issue alive over all the earth.

So what did God say? “…two of each shall come into the ark with you…”
OR
“… likewise, of every clean bird of the air, seven pairs, a male and a female, and of all the unclean birds, one pair, a male and a female…”

That’s why I asked how 1 can be the same as 7. If you can explain to me, in a way I can understand, how both accounts can be true, then I’ll give you one of these: :bowdown:

If you can’t, I’ll ask you if you are ready to concede that there is at least one passage in the book of Genesis that seems to contradict another. Therefore, it seems that a literal interpretation is not only not required, but not possible. If you conclude that it at least seems that way, I’ll optionally give you one of these, if you want it: :newidea:

Of course my question sounds absurd if you believe that Genesis is literal, but I don’t blame you for asking for clarification. I’m a 52 year old cradle Catholic and I didn’t know about this particular contradiction – the first time in my life that I’ve noticed that Gen 7 talks about 7 pairs, was just on February 15, when the account from Genesis 7 was included in the first reading for the daily Mass.

When I saw that I did a double-take. I thought, “can this be so obvious? Could it be that there is a contradiction that is so direct, between two verses that are practically one after the other? How is it possible, then, for us to interpret this literally?”

Please give this careful consideration. Personally I have yet to come up with any reasonable explanation other than that Genesis is, in fact, figurative. I’m with you that we cannot see God as schizophrenic, though I do find the following scriptures at least a little bit comforting:

1 Cor 1:25: For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

1 Cor 2:14: Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually.

1 Cor 3: 18-20: Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you considers himself wise in this age, let him become a fool so as to become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in the eyes of God, for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own ruses,” and again: “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.”

So, yeah. I’ll leave all that with you for a while. :hmmm:
The Jews distinguish between clean and unclean animals. I went to this site to see what is clean and unclean.
ucg.org/booklets/CU/bibledesignate.htm
Thank you. I’ve often wanted to know what those words meant, but never took the time to look into it. 🙂
There are no contradictions in scripture if that what you are trying for.
Believe me, I’m not trying for it. It jumped up and slapped me in the face. :bigyikes:

A figurative slap in the face, or course. 😃

Alan
 
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