Old Testmaent killing vs. Thou shalt not kill

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My husband teaches 4th grade PSR. After spending time covering the Old Testament, one of the students asked "Why is there so much killing in the Old Testament?’

In his next class, my husband will cover “Thou shalt not kill.”

Any ideas as to how to explain to the children why God wanted the Israelites to fight the pagans, with the resulting killing? 🤷
 
doglover said:
My husband teaches 4th grade PSR. After spending time covering the Old Testament, one of the students asked "Why is there so much killing in the Old Testament?’

In his next class, my husband will cover “Thou shalt not kill.”

Any ideas as to how to explain to the children why God wanted the Israelites to fight the pagans, with the resulting killing? 🤷
Click to expand...

Short answer - read the Torah 🙂 Or Exodus 18 onwards, anyway.​

The Commandments forbid murder - not war, & not the penalty of death. Some examples of the DP:
  • Lev 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever [he be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth [any] of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
  • Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them
  • Lev 24:14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard [him] lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
  • Lev 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.
  • Lev 24:23 And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.
  • Num 14:10 But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the LORD appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.
  • Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
  • Num 15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
  • Num 35:17 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
  • Deu 13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
  • Deu 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, [even] that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
  • Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
  • Deu 22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
  • Deu 22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, [being] in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
    The Torah is milder than most legal codes of its period - or than many Christian ones; 250 years ago, one could be hanged in England for stealing more than a shilling.
blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=&chapter=&verse=&word=with+stones&search_normal.x=54&search_normal.y=12
 
As Gottle of Geer mentioned - “The Torah is milder than most legal codes of its period …”

I’m not sure how much 4th graders can comprehend, but it is important to note that in the Old Testament God was not just establishing a religious faith, He was also establishing a nation. Because it was originally a theocracy (until they later demanded a king - 1 Sam 8:4-7), it was God who decreed ALL the laws. That included laws regarding the well being of the nation in addition to the teachings and regulations for the religious faith of the Israelites.

Nita
 
Dear Gottle of Geer,

Thank you for your post!.

I have to admit that I don’t know what DP stands for! :confused: “The Commandments forbid murder - not war, & not the penalty of death. Some examples of the DP:”

What does DP mean?
 
Dear Nita,

Thank you for your post!

I understand that God created a family, then a tribe, a nation and then the Church. But I am not sure that I understand your post relevant to my original question.

As part of His Plan, God commanded the Israelites to wipe out the people of Caanan. Then God was not pleased that the Israelites did not completely wipe them out. Some even went on to marry Caananite women and the Israelites were being led away from God from the influence of the Caananite women. So God’s Plan, to bring up a nation that totally followed Him, was thwarted. And the Israelites eventually paid the price for this disobedience.

The Israelites still waged war against these peoples and that included killing. So, are you saying that God sanctioned the wars and thus the killing of Caananites, so that this kind of killing is ok with God? :confused:
 
“The Commandments forbid murder - not war, & not the penalty of death.”

So, are you saying that if God commands war then war is ok? Kind of similar to a “just war”?

And if someone commits a heinous crime, then the state has the right to put that person to death?

And it is never permissible to kill a human being without just cause?

It takes me a while, but sometimes I eventually get the concept in my head! 😉
 
doglover said:
Dear Nita,

Thank you for your post!

I understand that God created a family, then a tribe, a nation and then the Church. But I am not sure that I understand your post relevant to my original question.

As part of His Plan, God commanded the Israelites to wipe out the people of Caanan. Then God was not pleased that the Israelites did not completely wipe them out. Some even went on to marry Caananite women and the Israelites were being led away from God from the influence of the Caananite women. So God’s Plan, to bring up a nation that totally followed Him, was thwarted. And the Israelites eventually paid the price for this disobedience.

The Israelites still waged war against these peoples and that included killing. So, are you saying that God sanctioned the wars and thus the killing of Caananites, so that this kind of killing is ok with God? :confused:
Click to expand...
There’s another thread going on in the Scripture forum regarding OT violence commanded by God. You may want to check it out if you haven’t already.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=214054

Nita
 
Judaism was the first religion to understand that God is One, and that He cares about right and wrong, good and evil. To establish this religion in the midst of pagan religions was difficult (for God never does violence to free will). The death penalty was used by the Israelites, at God’s command, in order to help establish this new religion and to clearly demonstrate that God punishes sin. There can be no clearer demonstration of punishment (on earth) than the death penalty. Serious sin results in a type of ‘death’ for the soul. So death for the body is a fitting punishment for serious sin.

Concerning the wars of the Israelites, they were told by God to wipe out 7 tribes, but only after those tribes had completed the full measure of their sins, as a punishment from God. Other tribes the Israelites were ordered not to wipe out and not to fight against.
 
Thank you for your further clarification! 🙂

I will make certain that I give this information to my husband so he can instruct his PSR students. 👍
 
Yes, God kills people, either directly or indirectly. We all belong to him in the first place and God is not beneath his own commandments. God killed people in the Old Testament because they were bad. Real bad. Some of them sacrificed 4rth and 5th graders to false gods by burning them, and they wanted to wipe out the Jews, our elder brothers.

God is the Author and Giver of Life, and when it is your turn to die, it will be up to Him to decide whether or not it be directly or indirectly. God is big, like a volcano. Befriend him, and he makes you his son or daughter. Or be toast.

God is not a giant marshmallow in the sky and Jesus is not a hippie flower child from the '60’s.
 
doglover said:
Dear Gottle of Geer,

Thank you for your post!.

I have to admit that I don’t know what DP stands for! :confused: “The Commandments forbid murder - not war, & not the penalty of death. Some examples of the DP:”

What does DP mean?
Click to expand...

Apologies :o​

DP = death penalty
 
doglover said:
“The Commandments forbid murder - not war, & not the penalty of death.”

So, are you saying that if God commands war then war is ok? Kind of similar to a “just war”?

And if someone commits a heinous crime, then the state has the right to put that person to death?
Click to expand...

I’m not trying to give my views, but to quote what, in fact, the Old Testament says on the subject. The OT presents us with a code of laws which provided for the execution of criminals, & presents this as the Will of the God of Israel; it is presented as a Divine revelation, with the force of law.​

Part of this revealed code directs that certain crimes be punished with death - other parts, give directions for the fighting of holy wars. I left out the holy wars for lack of space, & gave you a few examples of the DP instead.

As to how we, today, living in very different conditions from OT Israel, should deal with criminals - that’s a different matter. The Torah was given to Israel before Christ came: we are Christians & not Israelites, & our religion is not national as theirs was, but international. Jesus simplified the Torah into two commandments - love of God & love of neighbour. To do these is to fulfil the Law - which we are incapable of doing. Which is a reason why grace, not law, is central to Christian faith. He did not abolish the Law - He “set the bar” higher than it was already, most of all by the unlimitedness of His obedience to His Father, which led Him to pour out His Life on the Cross.
And it is never permissible to kill a human being without just cause?

It takes me a while, but sometimes I eventually get the concept in my head! 😉
Click to expand...

No, I was simply pointing out that the Death Penalty is not forbidden in the Ten Commandments. Unlike murder, which is forbidden in them. My apologies for not being clearer.​

Hope that helps 🙂
 
Gen 9:6
“Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.”

Definition of murder, from Merriam Webster:
1**:** the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.

Jesus: Matt 5:22***But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. ***

Peter tried to defend Jesus but what did Jesus say? And what could have been more lawful than the defense (never mind killing) of a person who sought the death of Jesus?

"Love your enemies; pray for those who persecute you"

I can’t believe it is an area of contention amongst Christians. And no, I obviously don’t believe in “just war” - one of several Catholic teachings I don’t agree with. How can these beliefs possibly be reconciled with clear teachings from Christ?
 
That had me flumoxed too, especialy when Pope Benedict said that “War in God’s name is never acceptable.” And from the clear message of scripture, I think it’s clear (as you pointed out) that Christians should not kill.

However, there’s also people who God has set in authority. He gives them responsibility to punish the wicked and protect the innocent. For example, your local police chief has a duty to protect and serve. That God given responsibility doesn’t get dodged just because the police chief happens to be a Christian. If anything he should be *more *vigilant in his duty, not less.

It’s a subtile distinction, but think about the difference between a police chief who acts on behalf of public safety v.s. one who acts to impose his beliefs through violence – one is good the other is evil and unChristlike.
 
Steadfast_love said:
That had me flumoxed too, especialy when Pope Benedict said that “War in God’s name is never acceptable.” And from the clear message of scripture, I think it’s clear (as you pointed out) that Christians should not kill.

However, there’s also people who God has set in authority. He gives them responsibility to punish the wicked and protect the innocent. For example, your local police chief has a duty to protect and serve. That God given responsibility doesn’t get dodged just because the police chief happens to be a Christian. If anything he should be *more *vigilant in his duty, not less.

It’s a subtile distinction, but think about the difference between a police chief who acts on behalf of public safety v.s. one who acts to impose his beliefs through violence – one is good the other is evil and unChristlike.
Click to expand...
Amen - God has set those in a position to keep order. I thank God I am not in a position to make such decisions! We should always pray for our law enforcement, politicians, etc… I do not envy their position, but I thank God for their work.
 
It was also explained to me that the correct translation of the word “kill” in the commandment is “murder.”

Thou shalt not murder.
 
JoyToBeCatholic said:
Gen 9:6
“Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.”

Definition of murder, from Merriam Webster:
1**:** the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.

Jesus: Matt 5:22***But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. ***

Peter tried to defend Jesus but what did Jesus say? And what could have been more lawful than the defense (never mind killing) of a person who sought the death of Jesus?

"Love your enemies; pray for those who persecute you"

I can’t believe it is an area of contention amongst Christians. And no, I obviously don’t believe in “just war” - one of several Catholic teachings I don’t agree with. How can these beliefs possibly be reconciled with clear teachings from Christ?
Click to expand...
I just have one word to say to all that…
…
…

Amen
 
JoyToBeCatholic said:
I can’t believe it is an area of contention amongst Christians. And no, I obviously don’t believe in “just war”** - one of several Catholic teachings I don’t agree with.** How can these beliefs possibly be reconciled with clear teachings from Christ?
Click to expand...
This is most unfortunate. If we do not adhere to the teachings of the Church, then why do we bother to call ourselves Catholic at all? I may not know or understand every line of Church doctrine, but I submit every fiber of my being to the teaching authority of the Magisterium, accepting that the Holy Spirit guides the spiritual descendants of Peter into all truth, as the Scriptures promised.

If we waver on any point of Catholic doctrine, then by what claim can we hold to any other? There can be only one Truth, not many, and if we decide privately that we know better than Holy Mother Church, then have we not made ourselves our own authority? May it never be! Let humility and wisdom dictate that we among the sheep do not presume to instruct the shepherds.
 
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