Old vs Current - Hell

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ForwardProgress

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Ok…seems like if you read older stuff on Hell, and the visions thereof by saints…(Bosco, Leonard, Teresa, Lucia)…it’s like most people are going there…that very few will be saved.

The people there are often there for one unconfessed or insufficiently confessed sin. Almost like there is some kind of accounting going on…on the right hand, you have mortal sins, on the left, you have cancel grace. If you don’t confess every single one of those sins, you are damned. God’s wrath is mentioned. They seem to make no exception for perhaps someone who has gone away from the Church for a long time and has no exact count of his/her sinfulness. People were in hell in Bosco’s vision, for example, that confessed that they did a sin 2 or 3 times when they really did it 4 times.

I know Hell is real, I believe it. But based on this older ‘version’ of hell and what gets you there, I am going to die and be damned, because I’m sure I didn’t give exact numbers of times that I’ve fallen into sin.

Current teaching is very merciful, and gives the impression that if one struggles, that’s what matters…we may fall, but we don’t give up.

That’s not the impression I get from the ‘old’ church…You screw up, you will go to hell. If you don’t do extreme penance for your past sins, you’ll go to hell, even though you were absolved…you weren’t sorry enough, you didn’t do enough penance, etc…

I can’t take this. I’m about to be driven crazy with this and I’m afraid of losing my faith over this. This is not the faith I grew up with. This is not a loving God that I know. The God I think I know is merciful and compassionate, and understands struggle. Much like being a human father and seeing your children struggle to do what is right. You always love them and never turn them away.

The God of this older generation is much like the God of the Old Testament.

I don’t know what to believe anymore.

😦
 
It always seemed to me that the older generations related more to the Old Testament than the New Testament. I personally believe, and was brought up believing, that God loves us and wants us all to succeed. He wants all of us with him in Heaven. Even in Catholic schools, more emphasis was put on the New Testament than the Old Testament, besides theology class, lol.

I believe that if you are honestly trying to be a better person, and follow God’s will, you get brownie points.
 
Re: confession, I think we’re called to do the best we can. If someone is damned for committing a mortal sin 4 times when they only confessed it twice or that they did it two times, it is because they KNEW they had done it four times but weren’t willing to own up to them all…either from hard-heartedness over whether they “really” did wrong those “other” times, embarrassment over telling the priest just how often they had fallen, etc. etc.

But someone who genuinely did not remember how often that they had committed a certain mortal sin or gave it their best estimate but did not deliberately try to make themselves look good or something doesn’t have a thing to be anxious about. You just do your best. That’s where God’s mercy comes in. It is when we are DELIBERATELY confessing in an “incomplete” fashion or PURPOSEFULLY omitting (mortal) sins from confession that we are in danger of the fate you described. It doesn’t happen accidentally or because somebody forgot an instance. I am sure heaven would be woefully empty if we had to keep a perfect account of all our past actions! (This is something I must remind myself of often because of my own “issues” about sin & confession!)

Now, as to why the “older” stuff has such a strong emphasis on the fire and brimstone, I’m not really sure. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable on Church history and the saints will be able to help you out on that one. :o
 
God is exactly the same God in the Old Testament and the New Testament. These Gods are not different Gods.

Saints are in no way whatsoever infalliable. They are humans who lived lives of exceptional holiness, but an important part of the Immaculate Conception doctrine is to distinguish Mary from other humans (who all except Christ) that are all sinners as far as we know. 😦
 
I personally enjoy the talks on hell. It helps me have mercy on sinners and reminds me of my total dependancy on God’s Mercy. I think it’s why Our Lady showed the children of Fatima hell.
 
God as revealed in the OT was more distant, authoritarian, etc. The Old Covenant concerned a time before Jesus entered human history when, apparently, mankind wasn’t yet ready for a New Covenant. Later, however, Gods’ love and even humility would be demonstrated in the most radical way in the New Covenant, a covenant of love and grace. Until we’re individually ready for this, God will seem to us more distant and angry as well.

God always loved man. According to the CCC, in conjunction with Original Sin man mistrusted God, irrationally feared Him, scorned Him, and conceived a distorted image of Him. Scripture even said man hated God without reason and St Paul tells us in the letter to the Romans that we were enemies of God until reconciled by Jesus death -and triumph over death.

The enmity and fear always came from mans’ side-not from Gods’. In spite of this God offers reconciliation, the righteous dying for those who unrighteously and undeservedly rejected God as their God. I do think the Church is beginning to teach this truth of His awesome love with increasing strength and clarity these days.
 
((((ForwardProgress)))))…be at peace with this…God knows your heart…all souls are given the chance to redeem themselves through God’s infinite mercy…He wants you with Him-you want to be with Him…Trust it will be so-lose the fear of the Old testament…God is Love and through Jesus you are more blessed than you realize-…👍
 
All joking aside, don’t give specific numbers unless you know for sure. That is what our pastor says. Say you were guilty of such and such sin, IF the priest ask how often say you’re not sure (and they don’t usually ask).

You’re not trying to be deceiptive, but this way you can be 100% truthful if you do not place a specific number on it.

On another topic someone list a sermon of a saint who argue that the vast majority of folks go to Hell even a huge percentage of Catholics and over 90% of priests. He gave pagans and non-Catholics almost zero chance of being saved.

His point was regardless of if its many or just one, you do not want to be the one who goes to Hell, and you won’t if you avoid mortal sins. Stay in the state of grace and trust in the Lord to keep you that way.
 
But numbers are important if you look at the old days. I saw something a while back that said woe to one who has a habit of a mortal sin, for it is impossible for him to confess the number of times he has sinned. So if your tally doesn’t match what’s in the book upstairs, bye bye.

I’m becoming mental over this.

God is love
God is infinite mercy
God will let you roast if you are off on your sin count.

Doesn’t anyone have a problem with this???

You can say what you want about we send ourselves, but when you look at it in the trad way, you have to confess number and kind…and if you are off…see ya!
 
If you are fixated on the Old Testament -you aren’t in essence “Christian”…Christianity is new Testament…Jesus fulfilled the Law…the new Covenant is all about God’s Love…

1John4:16-18 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.God is Love.Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.
In this way,love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment,because in this world we are like Him.
There is no fear in Love.But perfect Love drives out fear,because fear has to do with punishment.The one who fears is not made perfect in love…

Let these fears , doubts and confusion go now-you are being played with- such things are not of God…((hugs))) God Bless
 
I’m not stuck in the old testament…this is the attitude that prevailed in the church until very recently!
 
I think perhaps some of the older Priests may have some carry-over from the old ways…and I know Catholics who left the Church because of it…-I’ve been Catholic for my whole life(57 years) so I’ve been around older Priests, younger Priests, Nuns of all ages-even have Priests and Nuns in the family line…and those who project the wrath of God more than the Love of God through Jesus are dealing with their own personal issues and their place in God’s eyes -…and yes even many of the saints had those personal demons of confusion and fear to contend with-but what made them saints is how they rose above it and came through it …such things as fear turmoil, and confusion are not of God…
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you .I do not give as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid…👍
 
It seems to me that you fellas might be in some way unwilling to think that the majority of us are going to Hell. In fact, and this is just my perspective, it seems like you’re so unwilling to deal with this fact, that you’re willing to go against the Saints. They, after all, made it. We, in all likelyness, won’t.

I forget which Saint it was, maybe Benedict, but it was definately one from back in the day. Either way, his friend died one day, and the next night, the spirit of his friend appeared to him and said, “On the day that I died, 30,000 people died with me. Only I made it to Heaven.”

How you like them odds? Consider then this was a man who actively pursued holiness (y’know, fasting that would make us moderns faint, penance that would make us cringe). We don’t (that is, we lay persons who live in the world) stand much of a chance of getting there. It’ll be by the grace of God if we do, but then again, it always is, even for the biggest of saints (Who, interestingly enough, frequently considered themselves the biggest of sinners)
And then doesn’t it seem so unfair, that we who can strive for a lifetime can fail and burn for all eternity, and some infamous sinner can repent earnestly on his deathbed and be saved? Maybe it’s pride, that got us in the beggining, and could get us in the end. After all, presumption is as much a sin as despair.
 
ForwardProgress said:
I can’t take this. I’m about to be driven crazy with this and I’m afraid of losing my faith over this. This is not the faith I grew up with. This is not a loving God that I know. The God I think I know is merciful and compassionate, and understands struggle. Much like being a human father and seeing your children struggle to do what is right. You always love them and never turn them away.

The God of this older generation is much like the God of the Old Testament.

I don’t know what to believe anymore.

😦
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If these stories disturb you too greatly back off from them until you can handle them. The truth is difficult until considered with proper perspective – that is a Heavenly one.

The God of the Old Testament is the God you are called to understand and love, for He is Love – then and now. 🙂 You must try to understand the entire Old Testament through eyes of love and Faith.

Everything has a fundamental spiritual reason for happening in the Old Testament, including all the hard events, the killings, the torments – The same for Hell itself, the same for penances and trials we undergo while living in this life.

God is love. God’s providence guides all our lives. I think you should buy a little book called, ‘Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence’ by St. Claude, it’s very good and helpful for understanding and seeing God in everything that happens, good and naturally evil.

God’s justice is a key part of His goodness and being God, and needs to be understood. In today’s society we are raised not to understand Justice – but without Justice, mercy would not exist. Mercy without justice does not exist.

The devil encourages people to sin by speaking about mercy, and then encourages them to despair by speaking about wrath after the sin. We should think about these things in reverse order.

Confession requires a person be repentant – not merely sorrowful for the sin, but intending fully not to commit it again, by exerting the persons powers and accessing God’s grace.

When people fail and fall into Hell, we see exterior faults that cause them to fall there – when one commits a true mortal sin, one is destined to Hell, and a person who dies thus goes there. This is the basic faith. It’s troubling to witness, but sure of belief. Why does God not wait longer for that person to repent, we ask?

It is up to God – we do not know. There is the ‘sin against the Holy Spirit’ to consider. Gaining a greater grasp and understanding of these matters – I do not have it yet, perhaps never can or will – but we can have this trust: All that happens is the best, for the best, because God is absolutely good. 🙂

So trust and hope and do not concern yourself with what cannot help you, concern yourself with what can. 🙂

Day by day trust and become more holy and you will be happy. The Faith is certain, it is the reality of life that God has given us – trust, hope and learn the Lord’s ways. 🙂

‘Go into street and square, into palace and house, into city and countryside, into tribunal and court of law, and even into the temple of God. Where will you find virtue? “Alas!” cries Salvianus, “except for a very little number who flee evil, what is the assembly of Christians if not a sink of vice?” All that we can find everywhere is selfishness, ambition, gluttony, and luxury. Is not the greater portion of men defiled by the vice of impurity, and is not Saint John right in saying, "The whole world - if something so foul may be called - “is seated in wickedness?” I am not the one who is telling you; reason obliges you to believe that out of those who are living so badly, very few are saved.’

St. Leonard of Port Maurice

‘If there be a true way that leads to the Everlasting Kingdom, it is most certainly that of suffering, patiently endured.’

St. Colette
 
Forward Progress, what do you mean when you say “Old Church”?

I am a product of the Catholic school system back in the 1930’s. I was never taught all the terrible things that you say will happen to you if you “screw up.”

We were taught to make a regular Confession - which is different from some views today. On another post I was told that one only had to splash holy water around to be absolved of your venial sins (this was a mis-reading of St. Thomas).

You will not grow in your Spiritual life just by splashing holy water around. The more you go to Confession (without being scrupulous) the more you will learn to trust in the Lord and you will find peace.

Don’t be afraid. Just go to Confession as often as you can - immediately with a Mortal Sin on your Soul, of course, - but go regularly and tell the Priest your fears.:hug3:

The “old” church and the “new” church are one and the same.:highprayer:
 
Dtmccameron said:
I forget which Saint it was, maybe Benedict, but it was definately one from back in the day. Either way, his friend died one day, and the next night, the spirit of his friend appeared to him and said, “On the day that I died, 30,000 people died with me. Only I made it to Heaven.”
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In such a teaching would it be understood the Saint had bypassed purgatory and gone straight to heaven, the of the 30,000 not all went to hell but some were in purgatory ?
 
luciasclay said:
In such a teaching would it be understood the Saint had bypassed purgatory and gone straight to heaven, the of the 30,000 not all went to hell but some were in purgatory ?
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It might be from this pamphlet of examples from the saints:

olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml

33,000 to Hell, 3 to purgatory, 2 to Heaven. However for one tempted to do statistical analysis there’s a later example that is far worse. :eek:

But this generally fits the ‘Noah’s Ark’ template of salvation. :eek::eek::eek:

Lest one is tempted by these examples to run screaming off into the wilderness, just remember to go to Confession first and that this is what St. John the Baptist did and we know he survived. 🙂 👍

Seriously one must strive more and more to live a sacred life, i.e. a life you would feel comfortable standing before the altar with 24/7, and one which digs out unknown sins and gets rid of them – because we are generally not taught about sin properly nowadays nor recognize fully what we actually have to do without – and this can be spiritually fatal.

Thanks be to God for love, knowledge, and mercy!
 
Shin said:
It might be from this pamphlet of examples from the saints:

olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml

33,000 to Hell, 3 to purgatory, 2 to Heaven. However for one tempted to do statistical analysis there’s a later example that is far worse. :eek:

But this generally fits the ‘Noah’s Ark’ template of salvation. :eek::eek::eek:

Lest one is tempted by these examples to run screaming off into the wilderness, just remember to go to Confession first and that this is what St. John the Baptist did and we know he survived. 🙂 👍

Seriously one must strive more and more to live a sacred life, i.e. a life you would feel comfortable standing before the altar with 24/7, and one which digs out unknown sins and gets rid of them – because we are generally not taught about sin properly nowadays nor recognize fully what we actually have to do without – and this can be spiritually fatal.

Thanks be to God for love, knowledge, and mercy!
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How can one read that sermon and not fall into despair? Just reading part of that fills me with dread and worry. Why would someone repeat such dreadful statistics? It seems like, even if true, such statistics would not motivate a person, only fill them with despair, fear and dread.
 
nsper7 said:
How can one read that sermon and not fall into despair? Just reading part of that fills me with dread and worry. Why would someone repeat such dreadful statistics? It seems like, even if true, such statistics would not motivate a person, only fill them with despair, fear and dread.
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My friend, despair is a sin too – so do not do it. What these homilies call you to is a great devotion to the purity of God, the sinlessness of those who love Him. We are called to sinlessness, and in this life that is our goal for the sake of love of God. It is something we can come very close to achieving if we truly put ourselves to the task. But few people do this, so few people love God in **deed ** rather than in word or emotion only.

Now when you think of God, is not God tremendous, incomprehensibly immense and great? And so is not our calling to Him to give our all to Him in this life? But who gives his all? Who gives his life for God? And does not God deserve nothing less?

And so, the statistics whatever they be, are simply based on reality – like this world full of cliffs and hard happenings which we too cannot deny – and one of the other teachings of the Lord is that all will be well, and that all is well. All that happens, will be good in the end – it will work out. His hand guides all our lives. Those who go to Hell, we will not be upset about in Heaven – We will see the goodness in even that. We do our best to save them while there is time – but after it is over, it is over and we no longer will upset ourselves in the next life and in this we are to trust in God too, when we have achieved a closer union with Him we feel as He desires us to feel.

So… these things rather than driving one to despair are for the purpose of urging on on towards perfect love of God and helping all others to it. We can hope for miracles for the worst of sinners, and work our best for everyone to come to love God.
 
Shin said:
My friend, despair is a sin too – so do not do it. What these homilies call you to is a great devotion to the purity of God, the sinlessness of those who love Him. We are called to sinlessness, and in this life that is our goal for the sake of love of God. It is something we can come very close to achieving if we truly put ourselves to the task. But few people do this, so few people love God in **deed ** rather than in word or emotion only.

Now when you think of God, is not God tremendous, incomprehensibly immense and great? And so is not our calling to Him to give our all to Him in this life? But who gives his all? Who gives his life for God? And does not God deserve nothing less?

And so, the statistics whatever they be, are simply based on reality – like this world full of cliffs and hard happenings which we too cannot deny – and one of the other teachings of the Lord is that all will be well, and that all is well. All that happens, will be good in the end – it will work out. His hand guides all our lives. Those who go to Hell, we will not be upset about in Heaven – We will see the goodness in even that. We do our best to save them while there is time – but after it is over, it is over and we no longer will upset ourselves in the next life and in this we are to trust in God too, when we have achieved a closer union with Him we feel as He desires us to feel.

So… these things rather than driving one to despair are for the purpose of urging on on towards perfect love of God and helping all others to it. We can hope for miracles for the worst of sinners, and work our best for everyone to come to love God.
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It seems like the trick is avoiding mortal sin and also Confessing any mortal sin, but reading that stuff you pointed to, it seems like God is just looking for a way to invalidate our Confessions. I must admit this sort of thing only makes my Scrupulosity worse.

Also, what is the Church’s official view on St. Leonard’s sermon, as well as the statistics given by various Saints? Also, the statistics on the number of deaths seems a little extreme.

After all, St. Bernard claimed 33,000 people had died and faced judgment at the same moment the guy appearing to him did. St. Vincent Ferrer claimed 60,000.

For example, as of 2006, 62 million people died during that year (out of 6.47 billion). That comes to ~170,000 people per day dying, or ~7,100 people per hour, or ~120 people per minute, or ~2 people every second. Note this is with a world population of 6.47 billion.
 
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