Old Yeller in Paradise

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batteddy:
“As you can see, only the rational spiritual soul was concieved as needing a special creative act of God. Animal and vegetable souls are concieved of as being “educed from the evolving potencies of the organism” by purely natural generation and material means.”
Your quote in post # 79 came from the article Soul, from the The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume IX, Copyright © 1910 by Robert Appleton Company.

It is true that some Catholic philosophers held this opinion. And I believe that this is an opinion that a Catholic is free to hold, but to assert that this is a Dogma of the Catholic Faith would be going to far.
[An animal] is not spiritual or conscious any more than a computer.
Again you make this assertion, but there is nothing in the article that you quoted that I can see that would obligate a Catholic to accept that the higher animals are no more conscious than a computer. A computer is merely machine that has the same level of consciousness as a cinder block.
 
You still haven’t answered my question. Is the form of the animal a composite of the spiritual and the material? What is the “vital principle” that gives life to an animal - is it something spiritual or something material?
Material. There is nothing spiritual in an animal. Their soul is the form that informs Prime Matter in one material substance of an animal nature.
 
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batteddy:
Material. There is nothing spiritual in an animal.
Then I must conclude that you believe that animal life is ultimately reducible to nothing more than mere chemical reactions.

Why did God forbid the Jews from consuming the blood of animals?
 
Their “life” certainly may be reducible to that…but not their Being.

That is to say, I could make an exact replica of an animal using metal and plastic tiny parts…all the cells, all the chemical reactions, all the neurons in the brain…and it would still be an artificial machine and not an organic nature because it would simply be a lot of seperate minerals put together like a clock, whereas an animal, when alive, has a unified, holistic, organic cohesiveness metaphysically. An animal is one being, one hypostasis, one substance…it may work by a lot of its parts interacting through chemical reactions, but metaphysically it is of one nature.
 
Aquinas says in the Summa, in the question as to whether the sensitive (animal) soul is transmitted through the seed:
Some have held that the sensitive souls of animals are created by God (65, 4). This opinion would hold if the sensitive soul were subsistent, having being and operation of itself. For thus, as having being and operation of itself, to be made would needs be proper to it. And since a simple and subsistent thing cannot be made except by creation, it would follow that the sensitive soul would arrive at existence by creation.
But this principle is false–namely, that being and operation are proper to the sensitive soul, as has been made clear above (75, 3): for it would not cease to exist when the body perishes. Since, therefore, it is not a subsistent form, its relation to existence is that of the corporeal forms, to which existence does not belong as proper to them, but which are said to exist forasmuch as the subsistent composites exist through them. Wherefore to be made is proper to composites. And since the generator is like the generated, it follows of necessity that both the sensitive soul, and all other like forms are naturally brought into existence by certain corporeal agents that reduce the matter from potentiality to act, through some corporeal power of which they are possessed.
 
Also, from the article where he considers whether the souls of brute animals are subsistent:
On the other hand, sensation and the consequent operations of the sensitive soul are evidently accompanied with change in the body; thus in the act of vision, the pupil of the eye is affected by a reflection of color: and so with the other senses. Hence it is clear that the sensitive soul has no “per se” operation of its own, and that every operation of the sensitive soul belongs to the composite. Wherefore we conclude that as the souls of brute animals have no “per se” operations they are not subsistent. For the operation of anything follows the mode of its being.
The operation of this power in the sensitive soul is not apart from the body; for anger, joy, and passions of a like nature are accompanied by a change in the body.
As you can see, the animal soul and animal feelings have always been thought to be totally immersed in the body…and even when science was very primitive they recognized that all the operations of animals are attributable to only the metaphysical composite as a whole, not to the soul alone. It clearly recognizes that animals sensing and feeling are all accompanied by changes in the body (pupils dilating, heartrate increasing, neurons firing although they did not know it at the time) and thus the animal soul has no operations of its own, but these are in some way reducible to the corporeal.
 
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batteddy:
An animal is one being, one hypostasis, one substance…it may work by a lot of its parts interacting through chemical reactions, but metaphysically it is of one nature.
Being, nature, substance and hypostasis:**Catechism of the Catholic Church

251** In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.

252 The Church uses (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others. Yes, of course an animal is one substance. So is a human being, so is God.

The essence (substance) of a human being is a unity of the immaterial and material forms, and so is an animal. The immaterial form of the animal is what makes the animal more than a collection of material parts – a mere clock made of organic matter. The immaterial form of the animal is the vital principle that gives the animal its consciousness and its unifying principle.
As you can see, the animal soul and animal feelings have always been thought to be totally immersed in the body…
The animal has consciousness, whereas a machine does not have consciousness. The consciousness of the animal that keeps it from being a mere “organic robot”. That is why it is correct for you to say:” an exact replica of an animal using metal and plastic tiny parts…all the cells, all the chemical reactions, all the neurons in the brain…and it would still be an artificial machine …. because it would simply be a lot of seperate minerals put together like a clock, whereas an animal, when alive, has a unified, holistic, organic cohesiveness”.
 
Does the Catholic Church teach that animals are mere “organic robots” without consciousness?… there is a difference between attributing consciousness to animals and attributing reason to them. While it is true that the Christian tradition denies that animals have reason (as did, generally, the Greek philosophical tradition before it—there is nothing distinctively Christian about the idea), it did not generally deny that animals are conscious, or in particular that they feel pain and have other sensations. Famously, Aristotelians, including Christian Aristotelians like St. Thomas Aquinas, distinguish between the animal soul and the rational soul, where the animal soul is the form of non-human animals and the rational soul is the form of human beings. The rational soul includes the powers of the animal soul, but not vice versa. So animals lack the power to reason. Still, the animal soul includes the power of sensation.

…what made Descartes’ conception of the nature of the human soul distinctive is that he assimilated consciousness and reason, so that anything that lacked reason necessarily also lacked consciousness (and thus sensation). He also conceived of the soul as a substance rather than a form. This went hand in hand with his endorsement of the modern mechanistic conception of matter, which rejects Aristotelian forms and final causes as playing any part in the explanation of a physical substance. The upshot of this is that animals just as much as any other physical system, including human bodies, lack forms in the Aristotelian sense and thus lack anything like Aristotle’s animal soul. But since they also lack language and thus the power of reason, we have every reason, given Descartes metaphysical picture, to conclude that their bodies are not associated, as human bodies are, with immaterial substances. Hence they must be mere machines, as everything else in nature is that lacks an immaterial substance or Cartesian soul.

John Gray on Descartes and Animal Consciousness

The Hebrew, biblical term for all living organisms is “nephsh” (Gen. 1:21; Lev. 11:46; Gen. 2:7), though it is often translated by the term soul but it means a living organism and by extension, a life-giving principle, the whole personality in humans. Thus the Hebrew usage of the term technically means a “vital force” animating the living creatures, men and beasts that was imparted by the God’s breath, “ruach,” (Gen. 2:7; Ecclesiastes 3:19). It does not seem to have the divine nature, is not immortal …

… there is no term in Hebrew for the body. The term which is usually translated as the body is basar, “sarx” in Greek and in Latin caro. But basar means a whole man, the whole living being, human or animal, the body and the soul as one psychosomatic entity. In Aristotle it corresponds to the living body or syntheton.

THE PROBLEM OF THE SOUL IN ARISTOTLE’S De anima
 
batteddy

Why did God forbid the Jews from consuming the blood of animals?

Why were the Jews scandalized when Jesus told them that they must drink his blood to have eternal life?
 
The immaterial form of the animal is what makes the animal more than a collection of material parts – a mere clock made of organic matter. The immaterial form of the animal is the vital principle that gives the animal its consciousness and its unifying principle.
I do not think their form is immaterial. I think they have a material form. They are not “more than” a collection of material parts, their form is not something that makes them “more than” the sum of their parts…it is what makes them the sum of their parts, instead of just a list of independent parts that are not metaphysically summed (like a machine) but which coincidentally interact…

The form of an animal is like an equal sign in an equation. It doesnt make animals any “more than” the sum of their parts, it just ontologically unifies them as one substance instead of just a pile of seperate minerals and elements interacting.

Animal: the equation 1+2+3 = 6
Machine: the list 1,2,3 (or at best 1+2+3 with no equal sign)
The animal has consciousness, whereas a machine does not have consciousness.
Machines may have consciousness. They can certainly take in sensory data and manipulate it and act on it. But they don’t have consciousness OF their consciousness OF their consciousness OF their etc…which the Christian tradition calls “reason” or “intellect” or “understanding”
… there is a difference between attributing consciousness to animals and attributing reason to them. While it is true that the Christian tradition denies that animals have reason (as did, generally, the Greek philosophical tradition before it—there is nothing distinctively Christian about the idea), it did not generally deny that animals are conscious, or in particular that they feel pain and have other sensations.
I have never denied that animals “feel pain” or have sensations. The animal soul is in fact called the “sensitive soul”! I have denied that they subjectively experience the pain that they feel, I deny that they are conscious of their consciousness of the sensory data that they are conscious of. I robot with a sensor can feel something, which is after all just a sensation…just a reaction to sensory (name removed by moderator)ut…but they do not subjectively experience it because there is no “them” to experience it internally…
Why did God forbid the Jews from consuming the blood of animals?
I’ve heard because it was seen as the seat of Life…seems like a rather material explanation for life to me, it being in the blood that is.
 
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batteddy:
I have denied that [animals] subjectively experience the pain that they feel …
Yes, you keep saying that. It seems to me that your concept of animals is no different than Descartes’ animal-machines.
I robot with a sensor can feel something …
A robot no more “feels” something than a meat thermometer “feels” that is being heated up in an oven.
 
Koko, the famous gorilla …

Back in 1984, Koko, an accomplished gorilla who understands and uses American Sign Language, asked her trainer, Dr. Francine Patterson, for a cat. So when some abanded kittens were brought to the Woodside, California, compound where Koko lives, she was awarded the pick of the litter. After examining the kittens carefully, Koko chose a tailless gray male that she named All Ball.

Koko proved a wonderful pet owner and mother. She was very gentle with the kitten and treated him much like a baby gorilla, carrying him on her back and trying to nurse him. When she was in a playful mood, she would dress All Ball up in napkins or sign to him suggesting that they tickle each other, her favorite game.

Unfortunately, their relationship ended abrubtly in December of 1984, when All Ball escaped from the gorilla cage and was killed by a car. Koko was extrememly distraught over the death of All Ball and spoke of it soon after:
When asked, “Do you want to talk about your kitty?”
Koko signed, “Cry.”
“What happened to your kitty?”
Koko answered, “Sleep cat.”
When she saw a picture of a cat who looked very much like All Ball, Koko pointed to the picture and signed, “Cry, sad, frown.”
Koko’s mourning attracted a great deal of attention from the scientific community. Debates raged over whether or not animals have “emotions” in the human sense.​
 
A robot no more “feels” something than a meat thermometer “feels” that is being heated up in an oven.
I would disagree…a robot has at least one more layer of consciousness than a thermometer…because a computer (and an animal) has at least some recursive ability over its own knowledge…although not an infinite recursion (which would take infinite time or infinite matter)…but a robot can theoretically be conscious of its consciousness of its consciousness of its consciousness etc…just not in an infinite regress…only a finite regress…but it is still a layer higher than a thermometer when it comes to knowing about its knowledge…it just cannot infinitely metacognate…but it has some metacognative abilities…unlike the thermometer

As for Koko, someday robot could care for stuff too and have sad reactions when it dies. Animals obviously have emotions. The question is whether they have an ultimate irreducible immortal spiritual soul to actually experience everything that goes on inside its brain…or whether it is just neurons firing with no ultimately conscious Self, “I” or Observer.

As for their consciousness, Descartes and I may be on the same page or close at least (although I believe animals indeed have several layers of consciousness, as computers could have, but they only have a finite regress, not an infinitely recursive consciousness like humans)…but when it comes to an animal substance, I believe they have a form unlike a machine which is just independent parts artificially combined.
 
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batteddy:
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batteddy:
I would disagree…a robot has at least one more layer of consciousness than a thermometer…because a computer (and an animal) has at least some recursive ability over its own knowledge…
I don’t know what you mean by a computer having “recursive ability” over its “knowledge”. Dial thermometers are made that have moveable pointers that allow them to “remember” the high and low temperatures that they have measured. No one thinks that these thermometers are intelligent because they can “remember” what they have “experienced”. Computers are analogous to complex meat thermometers – mere machines that have zero intelligence, feelings or emotions.
The question is whether they have an ultimate irreducible immortal spiritual soul to actually experience everything that goes on inside its brain…or whether it is just neurons firing with no ultimately conscious Self, “I” or Observer.
Why are there only two choices – either an organic robot animal-machine or a living being possessing a rational and immortal soul?
 
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