OlderTextbooks vs Modern Textbooks

[Iotaunum]

Over the years I have been fortunate enough to acquire a large number of traditional Catholic volumes printed from 1850’s to 1960’s in Latin and English - most of which are ex-seminary library copies from all parts of the world. A lot of the manuals have pages of notes and commentry/corrections in latin/english and were obviously well used. When visiting Priests who would not consider themselves as "tradtionalists"I have seen titles in their libraries of books which I later bought and I have even bought some ex-seminary books of the more modern variety. When comparing the traditional books with the more modern ones I have noticed a change in style, and even content. I would like to know if anyone has read any of the texts currently used in seminaries and if they could list any titles or give commentary on them I would appreciate it…

Also, apart from seminaries I would also like more information on textbooks used in Schools and how the traditional books compare with the modern ones. I already have a number of primary and post primary books and I have to say I am shocked by some of the content of the books. Somes books will tell the child of Jesus claiming to exorcize possessed people, then in bold, bordered speach bubbles it will say “to find out more about epilepsy vist www.epilepsy.whatever” etc. and later the same text will have a cartoon drawing of Lazareth whom Christ raised from the dead and it will have Lazareth saying in a speech bubble: “I wasn’t dead, I was only sleeping”. I will not give the name of this book but it has the full approval of the Bishops conferences in England, Wales and Ireland, and is used in all primary schools throughout the U.K. I can only presume it was not checked thouroghly or the job delegated to someone with no theology training. The secondary books read the same way.

So really what I would like is to see what texts are used today in Catholic Seminaries and Schools, so that I can either purchase them myself as part of my research or if anyone has read any perhaps they could give commentary on them. Are they getting better? Perhaps the latest books are more orthodox. I sincerely believe that poor seminary and School instruction is one of the factors for the loss of faith today and perhaps if these texts were more like the traditional ones we would be moving in the right direction.

 

[ByzCat3]

My creds: Catholic high school junior, Catholic grade school graduate.

Well, frankly our texts annoy me (Didache series). Not that they’re heterodox, they’re just boring, dry, etc. Their content is often irrelevant to high school students (seriously, when are the majority of us ever going to need to know about, much less apply, the principle of subsidiarity? Get real). I’ve read some of the Fathers. Writing ~1700 years ago, they were more relevant, more engaging, and more readable than books produced 5-10 years ago. Archbishop Sheen was a complete genius. Writing ~50 years ago, he was more relevant, more engaging, and more readable than books produced 5-10 years ago. Just my opinion.

 

[laszlo]

Their content is often irrelevant to high school students (seriously, when are the majority of us ever going to need to know about, much less apply, the principle of subsidiarity? Get real). .

The principle of subsidiarity means that if a country destroys the existing power (Saddam, Gadaffi) in an other country, then she should take the responsibility for the internal order. I do not think that there is more important issue for US voters that this.

 

[Iotaunum]

My creds: Catholic high school junior, Catholic grade school graduate.

Well, frankly our texts annoy me (Didache series). Not that they’re heterodox, they’re just boring, dry, etc. Their content is often irrelevant to high school students (seriously, when are the majority of us ever going to need to know about, much less apply, the principle of subsidiarity? Get real). I’ve read some of the Fathers. Writing ~1700 years ago, they were more relevant, more engaging, and more readable than books produced 5-10 years ago. Archbishop Sheen was a complete genius. Writing ~50 years ago, he was more relevant, more engaging, and more readable than books produced 5-10 years ago. Just my opinion.

Thats right - the modern school texts seem to be filled with irrelevant social issues etc. When you think of the time wasted on reading materials which are not that important and have little to do with the Catholic faith, it is not hard to see why young people leaving school do not know their faith and give it up. In the same amount of time they could have learned the Baltimore Catechism and at least they would know the essentials.

 

[SouthpawLink]

I greatly enjoy the pre-Vatican II seminary textbooks; I have a small collection (dogma: Tanquerey, Herve, Sylvester, Wilhelm and Scannell, Ott; morals: Merkelbach, Noldin, McHugh and Callan, Prummer). If I want to know the Catholic Faith in detail, then I turn to them.

Personally, I don’t even bother with the newer seminary textbooks (there aren’t any multi-volume textbooks of Scholastic theology being written anymore, since Scholasticism is ‘out’, so to speak). I also don’t care for the “updated” ecclesiology (i.e. “the Catholic Church is present and operative in separated and sister communities/Churches”… they used to be known as heretical and schismatic sects), or for the monster that is “ecumenism” (dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, dialogue… where’s the grave necessity of conversion by non-Catholics?!).

Here’s what I mean: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/general-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930325_directory_en.html (“Ecumenism” is used 61 times in this document, and “ecumenical” more than 100 times, with “ecumenism” itself being badly/vaguely defined.)

Theology has definitely changed. It used to be necessary for non-Catholics to convert to the Church for salvation. Now, however, this doctrine is explicitly rejected with regard to the Eastern Orthodox* and probably also with regard to the Jews (their conversion is no longer prayed for in the New Mass, and then there are the repeated private statements of Pope Benedict…).

Anyway, here’s an example of what’s suggested for today’s seminary students:

frcoulter.com/books/priest-books.html

Here are suggestions for “independent” seminary students (i.e. pre-Vatican II curriculum):

mostholytrinityseminary.org/curriculum.htm
rosarychurch.net/vocations/studies.html (not complete)

*Want proof? Read this: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930624_lebanon_en.html

 

[Iotaunum]

Yes you know the theology has changed when the Seminaries and Priests throw away perfecly good books in good condition. I have ex-seminary books which have been re-bound a few times and are in as good a condition as any new book. Plus the content is excellent. When they are threw out in this condition it must be the content itself which is disagreeable to the modern theology. It is a shame.

 

[m134e5]

For an undergraduate research project, I had to use several textbooks that were written in the 1950’s and before. I never thought someone could make something so fascinating sound so boring!! Depending on the field of study, I usually prefer the more modern textbooks.

 

[ByzCat3]

I’m sorry for any rudeness in my earlier post, and hope that I did not start any sort of heretical thing…

 

[Geremia]

When comparing the traditional books with the more modern ones I have noticed a change in style, and even content.

Yes, the change in style is a departure from scholastic pedagogy and Latin—despite the current 249.Code of Canon Law mandating all seminarians “understand Latin well”—, and the change in content is a departure from Thomism—despite countless popes’ recommendations that St. Thomas be taught (cf., e.g., the 24 Thomistic Theses of the Sacred Congregation of Studies, now called the Congregation for Catholic Education, and esp. the 1917 1366Code of Canon Law, par. 2: “Teachers shall adhere religiously to the method, doctrine and principles” of Saint Thomas.) Sadly, although Vatican II in Optatam Totius said “in order that they may illumine the mysteries of salvation as completely as possible, the students should learn to penetrate them more deeply with the help of speculation, under the guidance of St. Thomas, and to perceive their interconnections,” it did not explicitly recommend Thomism with the force that, e.g., Pope Leo XIII’s Æterni Patris, Pope St. Pius X’s Doctoris Angelici, or Pope Pius XII’s Studiorum Ducem did.

Also, apart from seminaries I would also like more information on textbooks used in Schools and how the traditional books compare with the modern ones.

For a traditional list of seminary textbooks, see this.

 

[Iotaunum]

Yes, the change in style is a departure from scholastic pedagogy and Latin—despite the current Code of Canon Law 249. mandating all seminarians “understand Latin well”—, and the change in content is a departure from Thomism—despite countless popes’ recommendations that St. Thomas be taught (cf., e.g., the 24 Thomistic Theses of the Sacred Congregation of Studies, now called the Congregation for Catholic Education, and esp. the 1917 Code of Canon Law 1366, par. 2: “Teachers shall adhere religiously to the method, doctrine and principles” of Saint Thomas.) Sadly, although Vatican II in Optatam Totius said “in order that they may illumine the mysteries of salvation as completely as possible, the students should learn to penetrate them more deeply with the help of speculation, under the guidance of St. Thomas, and to perceive their interconnections,” it did not explicitly recommend Thomism with the force that, e.g., Pope Leo XIII’s Æterni Patris, Pope St. Pius X’s Doctoris Angelici, or Pope Pius XII’s Studiorum Ducem did.For a traditional list of seminary textbooks, see this.

Thanks for the Link. The departure from Thomism really sums up the overall direction the early textbooks went after Vatican II and even before. Of course it has gotten a lot worse than departing from the scholastic method in recent times - lucky these old texbooks can still be purchased!

 

[Geremia]

Thanks for the Link. The departure from Thomism really sums up the overall direction the early textbooks went after Vatican II and even before. Of course it has gotten a lot worse than departing from the scholastic method in recent times - lucky these old texbooks can still be purchased!

Or free online:

Hands-down, I recommend this: Reality: A Synthesis of Thomistic Thought by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. (Pope John Paul II’s thesis advisor), although it isn’t solely philosophy.

For “pure” philosophy this is good, too: (2004 reprint)Modern Thomistic Philosophy by Phillips (1st vol. on natural philosophy is free online; you can probably find the 2nd volume on metaphysics used for really cheap)

And so is this: A Manual of Modern Scholastic Philosophy by Card. Mercier (also free online: click the “Internet Archive” links on its WorldCat page for both volumes)

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

I homeschooled my son for 8 years and found the older textbooks were the best. If you studied history or other subjects, they were studied from a Catholic perspective. Now my son is in a Catholic high school. Most of the subjects bring in very little Catholic perspective. What surprised me was world history. In a Catholic school talking about world history you would think there would be a little talk about the great saints and martyrs of particular times, but none. So I supplement him at home.

 

[Geremia]

I homeschooled my son for 8 years and found the older textbooks were the best. If you studied history or other subjects, they were studied from a Catholic perspective. Now my son is in a Catholic high school. Most of the subjects bring in very little Catholic perspective. What surprised me was world history. In a Catholic school talking about world history you would think there would be a little talk about the great saints and martyrs of particular times, but none. So I supplement him at home.

That’s good! Perhaps he would like Christ And The Americas by Dr. Anne W. Carroll, too. It is a high school history textbook by Tan Books.

Yes, the old books, like the Baltimore Catechisms, are very good, too.

Warren Carrol, historian and founder of Christendom College, wrote a very good book on Mexican history, Cortes, and Our Lady of Guadalupe: Our Lady of Guadalupe and the conquest of darkness