"Omens"

[AnneElizabeth]

I put the thread title in parenthesis because I’m not exactly sure what it entails. I did read up about in in Christian websites citing Leviticus 19:26

Do not practice divination or seek omens.

But then on another website there was someone who was claiming to be Christian and said that sometimes the Lord sends signs- For example- Maybe your Great Aunt died and you and her were close and she always loved Blue Jays, and Blue Jays were ‘her’ thing. And maybe you were very sorrowful about her passing, worrying about her soul and upset about death and just then a Blue Jay fly’s down to your feet with, I dunno, say, a four leaf clover in its mouth and lays it down on the ground by you, and you take this as a sign from either her or God that she’s saying she’s ok, and you are comforted by it…

Is this what is meant in Leviticus 19:26 as an “omen”? Or could this be very much legit and alright according to The Faith? How should one interpret something specific and unusual happening to them according to The Faith?

To me, it seems as long as you are not* ‘seeking’ *a sign, it might be from God. As in, if it just happened to you, without your prompting (or even maybe a prayer for a sign).

I think it could get really crazy if it was something mundane  and seeing meaning in it- like as if you are standing under a nest, and a feather falls on you and you interpret that as a 'sign' of something...  I mean, you are under a nest after all, that sort of thing is very likely to happen.   Do you know what I mean?  A person can start to see meaning in just about anything- kind of reminds me of what people do with tarot cards (which I do know are wrong).  Is there a difference between the two examples?

But anyway, is it ok to sense something is from God in that way or is this what Leviticus 19:26 warns about? Was that an ‘omen’ and wrong- speaking of my example of the Blue Jay/Aunt passing thing? Or was that something very much real and ok, to interpret something in that way?

It seems to me that I have heard of things like this being ok in The Faith- like maybe some saints spoke about something like this happening to them.   I do remember long ago one Catholic lady that I knew speaking about something similar.  I remember at the time I was nervous about it being possibly not good for her to put her faith in such a thing, but I didn't say anything because I saw that how she interpreted it brought glory to God and comfort to her... and well, hey, what do I know- it could be or might not be... . but it still made me nervous just as in I didn't feel clear about what The Faith teaches.  

I don't remember anything from my Catechism. (I shall look it up soon, but feel free to chime in if you know off hand)  I'd like to know how other Catholics feel about this type of thing.   Thanks in advance for any replies.

 

[LethalMouse]

The best I can put on this is the aspect of intent. There is mention of signs for us given by God in the bible etc. But there are a few issues at play that make them not good. Many would seek to use signs to outhink God’s will, to be knowledgeable without God. God’s favor can breed arrogance (Satan was a high angel favored etc…) the other issue is where it goes, seeking signs seeks new signs and interpretation ie: falling toward paganism and demonic sources. The last issue I can think of is the testing, many seek to smtest the Lord or reduce the God of all into a puppet genie. These being disrespectful to He who should garner our most highest respect.

When seeking a sign of God’s will, how you can better serve Him. Discerning vocations etc… all good.
Seeking a sign like “tell me the numbers to play on lotto tonight” might tebd toward disrespect.

 

[RPRPsych]

I think the difference is between “seeking” omens and “receiving” them.

For example, the visionaries at Fatima did not pray “God, tell us exactly what will happen during WWI and WWII!”. They received the free gift of a vision which was not just for them, or their own selfish purposes, but for the whole world.

On the other hand, to “ask” for an omen is to show a mistrust of Divine Providence.

Moreover, in the context of Leviticus (a code of holiness for the Israelites, to set them apart from the Gentiles), “seeking an omen” could easily refer to idolatrous, demonic or superstitious practices. (This still happens. In my own country, many nominal Catholics do this, when they consult Hindu astrologers to decide whom they should marry. Priests have spoken out about this practice very often, but it continues. And very recently, a certain politician in the Western world consulted “New Age” diviners before making an important decision. Silliness is universal. )

 

[Convert1]

I think the difference is between “seeking” omens and “receiving” them.

For example, the visionaries at Fatima did not pray “God, tell us exactly what will happen during WWI and WWII!”. They received the free gift of a vision which was not just for them, or their own selfish purposes, but for the whole world.

On the other hand, to “ask” for an omen is to show a mistrust of Divine Providence.

Moreover, in the context of Leviticus (a code of holiness for the Israelites, to set them apart from the Gentiles), “seeking an omen” could easily refer to idolatrous, demonic or superstitious practices. (This still happens. In my own country, many nominal Catholics do this, when they consult Hindu astrologers to decide whom they should marry. Priests have spoken out about this practice very often, but it continues. And very recently, a certain politician in the Western world consulted “New Age” diviners before making an important decision. Silliness is universal. )

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Superstition.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Thanks to all for your replies so far. I really appreciate them!

If someone didn’t seek it though, and just for the moment forgoing Erika’s post that its all just ‘superstition’ but moving in the direction that RPRPsych suggested about the Fatima children, that it can be a part of The Faith… Can it be a lying spirit? In Scripture, we are told that we must test the spirits. Using the example I gave of the great aunt dying and the person getting comfort by the blue jay… are you saying that would not be from the Lord because its not for the whole world like that which was given knowledge to the children at Fatima? Does God not do personal things like that (like my example I provided) for people? Signs can’t be simply personal? OR should they be trusted simply because someone feels that it was from God? Or should it just be ignored like how Erika seemed to suggest when said its ‘superstition’? And if you think it should be ignored, then what is faith then-seriously… you mean to say nothing of that caliber has anything to do with faith, even when RPRPsych gave the example of the Fatima children?

Also, if its a lying spirit, how would they know? How would anyone know for sure? How does someone test something like that? (the example I gave) My question is not merely ‘what is an omen’ vs. ‘what is a sign’… but what differentiates the difference between what is alright (from God) vs. what is bad (from evil). … Similar to how people might ask what is the difference between a prophet of God and a psychic? To those who don’t’ know much about the two, it might seem the same, but there are differences. There are things between the two concepts that differentiate one of being ok (from God) and the other being condemned by God.

in other words… what is ok to trust, and what is not? What if someone believes something is from God, but its not… Does God see that as a sin? (I read in Scripture God sent someone a lying spirit) Was it wrong for the person in my example (Great Aunt dying, blue jay, etc) to interpret that as being a sign, a help to comfort them, from God?

Hope I didn’t complicate or confuse things with all my questions, but would appreciate feedback on this topic.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Despite saying that you were “foregoing” my description of all this as superstition, you’ve actually made my argument for me. Read what you just posted and think about it.

Keep in mind that neither Fatima nor Lourdes nor any private revelation is a required element of faith. Belief in that sort of thing is optional. The Church is simply certifying that there is nothing there contrary to faith, and if you want to go ahead and believe it, good for you. If you think it’s all pious nonsense (like me), than that’s OK too. As a matter of fact, read the catechism (or Dei Verbum) on the Bible: “…the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.” “That truth” is purposely left vague. But I would submit that “truth” is almost always a generalization like “God is good” or “Put God first” or something like that. The mistake–in my opinion–is that most people focus on the trees, not the forest, and get lost in details that are meaningless (in other words, the details are NOT there “for the sake of salvation”).

Now let’s talk blue jays and their kin. “Signs” if you like. I woke up today at 9 AM; 9 is my lucky number. I stepped out of bed with my left foot–a good sign since I’m left handed. The three eggs I had in my omelette were obviously a sign of the Trinity…I could go on and on, and if I lived in 1300 I’d believe it all. But you can see that this sort of thing (yes, that includes blue jays) quickly deteriorates into seeing a “sign” in everything. And of course you could make an argument that you can see God in everything. But I would argue that other than a healthy respect for nature and its beauty, you shouldn’t look for “signs” everywhere. If you want a “sign” look carefully at the laws of physics or mathematics.

Try reading “The Improbability Principle: Why Coincidences, Miracles, and Rare Events Happen Every Day” by David Hand. Most people don’t understand probability properly. Watch a few Youtube videos about various stunts–are any of them “probable”? No. Are they miracles? No. They are simply improbable events that occur by chance.

Finally, as you admit yourself, you’re left interpreting the “omens” or “signs” by yourself. Does that make any sense? Even the Romans didn’t do that!

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Despite saying that you were “foregoing” my description of all this as superstition, you’ve actually made my argument for me. Read what you just posted and think about it.

Keep in mind that neither Fatima nor Lourdes nor any private revelation is a required element of faith. Belief in that sort of thing is optional. The Church is simply certifying that there is nothing there contrary to faith, and if you want to go ahead and believe it, good for you. If you think it’s all pious nonsense (like me), than that’s OK too. As a matter of fact, read the catechism (or Dei Verbum) on the Bible: “…the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.” “That truth” is purposely left vague. But I would submit that “truth” is almost always a generalization like “God is good” or “Put God first” or something like that. The mistake–in my opinion–is that most people focus on the trees, not the forest, and get lost in details that are meaningless (in other words, the details are NOT there “for the sake of salvation”).

Now let’s talk blue jays and their kin. “Signs” if you like. I woke up today at 9 AM; 9 is my lucky number. I stepped out of bed with my left foot–a good sign since I’m left handed. The three eggs I had in my omelette were obviously a sign of the Trinity…I could go on and on, and if I lived in 1300 I’d believe it all. But you can see that this sort of thing (yes, that includes blue jays) quickly deteriorates into seeing a “sign” in everything. And of course you could make an argument that you can see God in everything. But I would argue that other than a healthy respect for nature and its beauty, you shouldn’t look for “signs” everywhere. If you want a “sign” look carefully at the laws of physics or mathematics.

Try reading “The Improbability Principle: Why Coincidences, Miracles, and Rare Events Happen Every Day” by David Hand. Most people don’t understand probability properly. Watch a few Youtube videos about various stunts–are any of them “probable”? No. Are they miracles? No. They are simply improbable events that occur by chance.

Finally, as you admit yourself, you’re left interpreting the “omens” or “signs” by yourself. Does that make any sense? Even the Romans didn’t do that!

I didn’t mean to sound as if I was nixing your post… I was just setting your response aside. It surly is one way to look at this. I try and look at all angles- and yours was just a cut off point to exploration of the issue and I wanted to hear things from others about the ohter side of “superstition”, that is all.

I hope you weren’t offended. You bring up good points here which I also was trying to make (vaguely). I do not want to fully discount this topic since I have heard others talking about experiences like this. You seem to, and that is ok- that’s your prerogative. Thanks for sharing your view more clearly though. I appreciate that too.

 

[kdbueno]

You must understand that faith in correctness is a proof of true and eternal righteousness. Faith in something that is unrealistically incorrect, is a proof of true and correct unrighteousness.

 

[LethalMouse]

Despite saying that you were “foregoing” my description of all this as superstition, you’ve actually made my argument for me. Read what you just posted and think about it.

Keep in mind that neither Fatima nor Lourdes nor any private revelation is a required element of faith. Belief in that sort of thing is optional. The Church is simply certifying that there is nothing there contrary to faith, and if you want to go ahead and believe it, good for you. If you think it’s all pious nonsense (like me), than that’s OK too. As a matter of fact, read the catechism (or Dei Verbum) on the Bible: “…the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.” “That truth” is purposely left vague. But I would submit that “truth” is almost always a generalization like “God is good” or “Put God first” or something like that. The mistake–in my opinion–is that most people focus on the trees, not the forest, and get lost in details that are meaningless (in other words, the details are NOT there “for the sake of salvation”).

Now let’s talk blue jays and their kin. “Signs” if you like. I woke up today at 9 AM; 9 is my lucky number. I stepped out of bed with my left foot–a good sign since I’m left handed. The three eggs I had in my omelette were obviously a sign of the Trinity…I could go on and on, and if I lived in 1300 I’d believe it all. But you can see that this sort of thing (yes, that includes blue jays) quickly deteriorates into seeing a “sign” in everything. And of course you could make an argument that you can see God in everything. But I would argue that other than a healthy respect for nature and its beauty, you shouldn’t look for “signs” everywhere. If you want a “sign” look carefully at the laws of physics or mathematics.

Try reading “The Improbability Principle: Why Coincidences, Miracles, and Rare Events Happen Every Day” by David Hand. Most people don’t understand probability properly. Watch a few Youtube videos about various stunts–are any of them “probable”? No. Are they miracles? No. They are simply improbable events that occur by chance.

Finally, as you admit yourself, you’re left interpreting the “omens” or “signs” by yourself. Does that make any sense? Even the Romans didn’t do that!

“Investigating Islam” but you believe that eveything supernatural is bologna??? So then how could you believe Muhammed?

Two, so you suggest a belief in God by your post if I get you right? But you believe He never does anything? Idk about fatima etc… but surely some?

As to signs “everywhere” people can get crazy, but it doesn’t mean it can’t be some signs. I believe God to be a smart dude and MOSTLY He likes to work in corporeal ways… So if you are lost in the forest I doubt you will find a God given banquet table full of the most perfectly cooked deliciousness ever… but you might find an old rusty fishing pole near a pond, because that is how he operates. I also believe God works this way in the same reason our bodies are not hollow. God did not create an old western movie set with fake store fronts. He created actual thing that actually work completely. So why not “send” a blue jay at an opportune moment if literally a blue jay is all that is needed?

 

[AnneElizabeth]

You must understand that faith in correctness is a proof of true and eternal righteousness. Faith in something that is unrealistically incorrect, is a proof of true and correct unrighteousness.

Could you please explain what you mean by that, and where you were taught that notion?

How does anyone know that their faith is correct? Isn’t this the same problem Jesus told the Pharisees they had? They thought they had it all correct, but when they did, they acted in very cruel godless ways that they couldn’t even see, because to them, they had it all down pat. They were right and everyone else was wrong.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

First, “investigating” doesn’t mean “believing.” And yes, I believe in “God,” but I think everyone has their own definition of “God.”

But let’s stick to the poster’s issue. Let’s do this by telling a story about “John.”

John is a very pious person who believes God cares for him in a very personal way and communicates through various “signs.” When John interviewed for a job he wanted, he prayed that he would get it, and he did. When John was in doubt as to which house to buy, he remembered that a blue jay, his mother’s favorite bird, was drinking at the bird bath at one house. He bought that house because of the “sign.” John was dating a girl he wanted to marry, and one day he prayed to God: “If she wears a red dress tonight, I’ll know it’s a sign that I am supposed to marry her, and I’ll propose right away!” The girl wore a red dress, John proposed, and they’re happily married. Once John was on a hunting trip and got lost in the forest. He prayed for inspiration, and soon after he saw a light in the forest–it was sunlight reflecting off a car window. He was saved. And so on.

But the company that hired John only interviewed three people for the job. His odds were 33% that he would get the job. He saw the blue jay at the one house, but he didn’t see the blue jays that visited all the other houses as well. His girlfriend owned three red dresses and only 7 others…so a 30% chance she would wear red. He saw the reflected light of the car window, but he would have seen it earlier if only he hadn’t had his eyes shut while praying.

But let’s examine John’s life in more detail. We’ll stick to one incident for the sake of time and space! Why was John looking for a new job anyway? How many applications did he send out? What made the employer want to interview him? Why was he hired and not the other two interviewees? You could, of course, make a much more elaborate chain of events. Is there a “sign” in every single thing John sees, hears, or does? If John eats 24 French fries instead of 25, what does that mean??? And yes, you could assume that the whole process was driven by “God’s will” from start to finish. God had a “plan” for John, and God was orchestrating the whole thing from start to finish. Of course in this scenario, John is just an actor playing a part in a scripted play. At some point John might say to himself, “Do I have free will at all?”

Finally, things don’t always go well for John. John once broke his leg, his parents died in a plane crash, his sister died a long, lingering death from cancer, John’s wife had two pregnancies that ended in still births, etc. etc. So…does John infer from all this that God is singling him out for some sort of punishment? Should John feel guilty for breaking his leg? Does he feel responsible for his parents’ death? This way madness lies.

Consider Luke 13:4-5: “What about those eighteen people who were killed when the tower at Siloam fell on them? Do you think they were worse offenders than all the other people living in Jerusalem? Absolutely not, I tell you! But if you don’t repent, then you, too, will all die.” I’m going to paraphrase what Jesus would say if he were responding here: “Hey guys, Stuff happens. It’s random. Don’t read into it a bunch of stuff that’s not there. You have enough to worry about–how about that old lady who was asking for directions this morning? You ignored her. When your boss asked you to certify to a buyer that your products met the EU safety code, you wrote and signed the letter, even though you knew you were lying. When your co-worker asked for a $20 loan till payday, you blew him off. Why aren’t you worried about this stuff? I am.”

 

[AnneElizabeth]

First, “investigating” doesn’t mean “believing.” And yes, I believe in “God,” but I think everyone has their own definition of “God.”

But let’s stick to the poster’s issue. Let’s do this by telling a story about “John.”

John is a very pious person who believes God cares for him in a very personal way and communicates through various “signs.” When John interviewed for a job he wanted, he prayed that he would get it, and he did. When John was in doubt as to which house to buy, he remembered that a blue jay, his mother’s favorite bird, was drinking at the bird bath at one house. He bought that house because of the “sign.” John was dating a girl he wanted to marry, and one day he prayed to God: “If she wears a red dress tonight, I’ll know it’s a sign that I am supposed to marry her, and I’ll propose right away!” The girl wore a red dress, John proposed, and they’re happily married. Once John was on a hunting trip and got lost in the forest. He prayed for inspiration, and soon after he saw a light in the forest–it was sunlight reflecting off a car window. He was saved. And so on.

But the company that hired John only interviewed three people for the job. His odds were 33% that he would get the job. He saw the blue jay at the one house, but he didn’t see the blue jays that visited all the other houses as well. His girlfriend owned three red dresses and only 7 others…so a 30% chance she would wear red. He saw the reflected light of the car window, but he would have seen it earlier if only he hadn’t had his eyes shut while praying.

But let’s examine John’s life in more detail. We’ll stick to one incident for the sake of time and space! Why was John looking for a new job anyway? How many applications did he send out? What made the employer want to interview him? Why was he hired and not the other two interviewees? You could, of course, make a much more elaborate chain of events. Is there a “sign” in every single thing John sees, hears, or does? If John eats 24 French fries instead of 25, what does that mean??? And yes, you could assume that the whole process was driven by “God’s will” from start to finish. God had a “plan” for John, and God was orchestrating the whole thing from start to finish. Of course in this scenario, John is just an actor playing a part in a scripted play. At some point John might say to himself, “Do I have free will at all?”

Finally, things don’t always go well for John. John once broke his leg, his parents died in a plane crash, his sister died a long, lingering death from cancer, John’s wife had two pregnancies that ended in still births, etc. etc. So…does John infer from all this that God is singling him out for some sort of punishment? Should John feel guilty for breaking his leg? Does he feel responsible for his parents’ death? This way madness lies.

Consider Luke 13:4-5: “What about those eighteen people who were killed when the tower at Siloam fell on them? Do you think they were worse offenders than all the other people living in Jerusalem? Absolutely not, I tell you! But if you don’t repent, then you, too, will all die.” I’m going to paraphrase what Jesus would say if he were responding here: “Hey guys, Stuff happens. It’s random. Don’t read into it a bunch of stuff that’s not there. You have enough to worry about–how about that old lady who was asking for directions this morning? You ignored her. When your boss asked you to certify to a buyer that your products met the EU safety code, you wrote and signed the letter, even though you knew you were lying. When your co-worker asked for a $20 loan till payday, you blew him off. Why aren’t you worried about this stuff? I am.”

I understood perfectly what you were trying to say the first time around. This doesn’t really pertain to my question. Kind of really didn’t like your tone here either… came off as kind of rude. Maybe you weren’t meaning to, but that is how it was received.

We are not to go seeking for signs (which is the problem of "john’ in your example)… yep, got that. Even agree with it. So why the rehash?

My original post is not about that kind of thing, but I’m gathering from you, you don’t believe that there is any sort of thing as a sign from God, or help from God. That to you, all things like this, whether it was a help or not, are pure poppycock, which, as I said, is your prerogative, but I have no idea why you are rehashing here. I’m supposing you think my inquiry (which was a matter of what the church says is ok) is stupid.