Omnipotence, Aquinas and the Heavy Rock

[Mile_Sprint]

Hello there, I am a long time Christian, but very new Catholic and as such I am still coming to terms with many official stances and arguments to supports Doctriens and teachings , I am hoping to in time learn and apply the Catholic understanding and supports to many such doctrines so I can effectively continue my apologetics.

to the point!

In my debates and discussions I often come across the tired old “Can God create a rock so heavy he can’t lift it” line.
This is something I often tackle by taking it is appart as a non-sensicle statement that is meanignless and nothing but a combination of words to create nonsesne the same as “Draw a nine sided triangle” or “Can God make a man with free will , yet withhold from him free-will”

Anyway I disagress, among my rebuttals to this I inventiably come into defining Omnipotence from a Christian P.O.V and state that it is not the Dictionary/Atheist view that anything can be acheived even if it’s just plain stupid combinations of words , that there is a Christian view of Omnipotence

I usually end up throwing out two quotes, one from St Thomas Aquinas and one from the non-catholic but still inspiring theologian C.S Lewis(Someone who’s writings personally guided me towards Catholocism)

In the scholastic understanding, omnipotence is generally understood to be compatible with certain limitations upon a deity’s power, as opposed to implying infinite abilities. There are certain things that even an omnipotent deity cannot do.
Thomas Aquinas

His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to his power. If you choose to say ‘God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,’ you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: **meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words ‘God can.’… **It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of his creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because his power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.
C.S Lewis.

My main concern is Aquinas’s statement of “There are certain things even an Omnipotent Deity cannot do”

And to a lesser degree Lewis insistence that God cannot perform meanginless combinations of words.

Am I correct or mistaken in thinking that the Catholic Church’s doctrine and position on Omnipotence is in agreeance with Aquinas statement?
And does Lewis’s statements go against any teaching?

Yours thankfully in Christ.

Sprint.

 

[Mark1124]

My main concern is Aquinas’s statement of “There are certain things even an Omnipotent Deity cannot do”

And to a lesser degree Lewis insistence that God cannot perform meanginless combinations of words.

Am I correct or mistaken in thinking that the Catholic Church’s doctrine and position on Omnipotence is in agreeance with Aquinas statement?
And does Lewis’s statements go against any teaching?

Yours thankfully in Christ.

Sprint.

First of all, that’s not a quote from Aquinas. That’s a quote from Wikipedia about Aquinas. And I think that statement is inaccurate, or at least very badly phrased: why would we want to say an omnipotent being is subject to limitations? It is better to say that something cannot be done than that God cannot do it.

I am fairly certain that the Church does, however, agree with what Aquinas actually said about omnipotence, which is basically that God can do anything that does not involve a contradiction. “A rock so heavy God cannot lift it” is a contradiction, and therefore it cannot be created. It would involve a contradiction for a perfectly good being to lie, and therefore God cannot lie. But God is still omnipotent.

I don’t see any problem with Lewis’s quote.

 

[bzkoss236]

To an extent, I would say this is true. God can’t do something contrary to what something is. For instance, can God sin? Since God is the author of good, he therefore cannot sin because what he does is the basis for good. Or using your 9-sided triangle. It is impossible to have a 9-sided shape that is a triangle, but God, and you, can take a triangle and give it 9-sides, but it would no longer be a triangle. The only other way you could have a 9-sided triangle is to redefine what a triangle is. For instance, in another universe, they may have a 9-sided triangle, but it wouldn’t be what we would consider a triangle because our triangles have 3 sides. You can’t make something contrary to what it is, and it is presumed that God can’t either. Though, this may only be speculation and God could do such a thing, but chooses not to, but that answer is often not acceptable.

And to answer your second question, Lewis’ statement (IMO) matches with Aquinas’ statement because such nonsensical things are meaningless and are nothing but a combination of words because they can’t be real things.

 

[Br.Carlo]

God’s peace. It just occurred to me that God being “unable” to make a nine-sided triangle is a good way to argue against the homosexualizers who want to have homosexual unions recognized as marriages. Marriage is what it is: a lawful and potentially holy union between one man and one woman. Triangles have three sides, by definition. You can make a three-sided figure have nine sides, but it isn’t a triangle anymore, and even God “can’t” make it so, because God can’t make truth out of nonsense. Neither can he (or anyone else) make a homosexual union a marriage. Blessings, ~Br. Carlo~

 

[Arizona_Mike]

As further explanation when discussing this matter with others, you might consider using an explanation from an atheist, Isaac Asimov, who was once asked about a similar logical conundrum - what would happen if an irresistible force met an immovable object?

Dr. Asimov quite rightly replied that a world that contains an immovable object cannot also contain an irresistible force, so the question is quite meaningless, or could simply be answered, “No!” Contradictory statements are mere word puzzles that have no relation to reality or God’s power.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Hello there, I am a long time Christian, but very new Catholic and as such I am still coming to terms with many official stances and arguments to supports Doctriens and teachings , I am hoping to in time learn and apply the Catholic understanding and supports to many such doctrines so I can effectively continue my apologetics.

to the point!

In my debates and discussions I often come across the tired old “Can God create a rock so heavy he can’t lift it” line.
This is something I often tackle by taking it is appart as a non-sensicle statement that is meanignless and nothing but a combination of words to create nonsesne the same as “Draw a nine sided triangle” or “Can God make a man with free will , yet withhold from him free-will”

Anyway I disagress, among my rebuttals to this I inventiably come into defining Omnipotence from a Christian P.O.V and state that it is not the Dictionary/Atheist view that anything can be acheived even if it’s just plain stupid combinations of words , that there is a Christian view of Omnipotence

I usually end up throwing out two quotes, one from St Thomas Aquinas and one from the non-catholic but still inspiring theologian C.S Lewis(Someone who’s writings personally guided me towards Catholocism)

My main concern is Aquinas’s statement of “There are certain things even an Omnipotent Deity cannot do”

And to a lesser degree Lewis insistence that God cannot perform meanginless combinations of words.

Am I correct or mistaken in thinking that the Catholic Church’s doctrine and position on Omnipotence is in agreeance with Aquinas statement?
And does Lewis’s statements go against any teaching?

Yours thankfully in Christ.

Sprint.

What you have to do is study your Catechism. It has excellent footnotes which can help answer your questions. But when it comes to the bottom line, Catholic Truths do not depend on " proofs, " they depend on Devine Revelation only. Until you can accept that you should not engage in debates. Now if you do want to engage in debates, which cannot " prove " anything but only show that the Faith is not contrary to reason, you should engage in a long course of Apologetics. Otherwise you will find that you may not be able to give a satisfactory answer which may cause you to doubt your faith. All this debate stuff is really stupid anyway. What did St. Paul say? " I preach Christ and him cruxsified. " That should be our approach. That is what is wrong with these forums. They have become nothing but platforms for spouting off, few here are sincerely seaking knowledge.

 

[armel_h]

@Mile Sprint

Well, you did give the right answer, and Lewis (yes, a great author) gave the same : a “non-sensicle statement that is meanignless and nothing but a combination of words to create nonsesne the same as “Draw a nine sided triangle” or "Can God make a man with free will , yet withhold from him free-will”,
doesn’t become a real question just because someone put a “can God” at the beginning and a question mark at the end.

The fact of considering omnipotence in a christian point of view is not a problem, if the question does not mean anything - and that’s it : it does not mean anything, as you pointed it out and as Lewis did before us.

This question being build to be inconsistent, it IS inconsistent ; and so does not mean anything, and is only an semblance of question, but in fact is not a question at all. There’s no answer because there’s no question.

As if I asked, like in one french comical sketch :
“What’s the difference between a duck ?”

Secondly, the definition of “omnipotence” that is used here is not a “christian point of view” but a logical point of view, the omnipotent god being a prerequisite :
in fact the question means :
“if we imagine one being that has every power on the universe, let call him “God”, then can God…”

But if you have first defined the element called “God” by : “who has create all beings and has every power on every beings he creates”, then putting it in the same sentence as “something which limits his power” makes the question inconsistent.

 

[fred_conty]

A contradiction can not exist. Therefore God can’t make or create one, because it is a non being, or non existent. God only creates beings.

Proof, show me a contradiction.

Just a thought.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Hello there, I am a long time Christian, but very new Catholic and as such I am still coming to terms with many official stances and arguments to supports Doctriens and teachings , I am hoping to in time learn and apply the Catholic understanding and supports to many such doctrines so I can effectively continue my apologetics.

to the point!

In my debates and discussions I often come across the tired old “Can God create a rock so heavy he can’t lift it” line.
This is something I often tackle by taking it is appart as a non-sensicle statement that is meanignless and nothing but a combination of words to create nonsesne the same as “Draw a nine sided triangle” or “Can God make a man with free will , yet withhold from him free-will”

Anyway I disagress, among my rebuttals to this I inventiably come into defining Omnipotence from a Christian P.O.V and state that it is not the Dictionary/Atheist view that anything can be acheived even if it’s just plain stupid combinations of words , that there is a Christian view of Omnipotence

I usually end up throwing out two quotes, one from St Thomas Aquinas and one from the non-catholic but still inspiring theologian C.S Lewis(Someone who’s writings personally guided me towards Catholocism)

My main concern is Aquinas’s statement of “There are certain things even an Omnipotent Deity cannot do”

And to a lesser degree Lewis insistence that God cannot perform meanginless combinations of words.

Am I correct or mistaken in thinking that the Catholic Church’s doctrine and position on Omnipotence is in agreeance with Aquinas statement?
And does Lewis’s statements go against any teaching?

Yours thankfully in Christ.

Sprint.

You are correct. God can’t make a square circle either, because by definition it would no longer be a circle. People do these things to say God isn’t “omnipotent”. When we say God can do everything, or that God is all powerful, that means just that. A rock too heavy for God to lift doesn’t make any sense, because God is spiritual and not limited by physical characteristics of objects such as weight. Similarly, a four sided triangle is impossible for God to make because he can’t contradict his own rules about the nature of things he created. God can do all possible things that don’t contradict the very nature of that thing. For instance, he could make humans fly if he wanted to because there is nothing about humans that in principle makes it impossible for us to fly. However, it is impossible in principle to make a four sided triangle.

Sorry if my rant didn’t help.