Omniscience and Omnipotence - can they co-exist?

[ManRay]

I was reading somewhere in regards to logic, and something interesting came up in reference to god. It was posited that if god is all knowing, then it would certainly already know how it would intervene to change/sustain the course of history through his attribute of omnipotence or all powerfulness ness….But logically this would lead to the fact that he wouldn’t be able to change its own state/mind in regards to the intervention which would show that it wasn’t indeed omnipotent. They can’t co exist.

 

[jochoa]

I was reading somewhere in regards to logic, and something interesting came up in reference to god. It was posited that if god is all knowing, then it would certainly already know how it would intervene to change/sustain the course of history through his attribute of omnipotence or all powerfulness ness….But logically this would lead to the fact that he wouldn’t be able to change its own state/mind in regards to the intervention which would show that it wasn’t indeed omnipotent. They can’t co exist.

Excellent question! Sure, they can! God is not unable to change His mind, instead, God will not change His mind because changing His mind would go against common sense, which is not omniscience. Please consider the following line of thinking:
For God to choose to intervene in a lesser way than the Absolute Best, which He knows, would indicate the lack of common sense.
Since common sense is one with omniscience, He will not use All-Power in a way that is less than the Absolute Best!

 

[George_Stegmeir]

I was reading somewhere in regards to logic, and something interesting came up in reference to god. It was posited that if god is all knowing, then it would certainly already know how it would intervene to change/sustain the course of history through his attribute of omnipotence or all powerfulness ness….But logically this would lead to the fact that he wouldn’t be able to change its own state/mind in regards to the intervention which would show that it wasn’t indeed omnipotent. They can’t co exist.

I know you like to debate, but the fact is, that G*d can be and do anything He wants to, and His nature is beyond the knowledge of any human mind. The terms omniscience and omnipotence are only paltry human attempts to explain His being and nature.
Like it or not, this is fact, and any other explanation is a waste of time.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I was reading somewhere in regards to logic, and something interesting came up in reference to god. It was posited that if god is all knowing, then it would certainly already know how it would intervene to change/sustain the course of history through his attribute of omnipotence or all powerfulness ness….But logically this would lead to the fact that he wouldn’t be able to change its own state/mind in regards to the intervention which would show that it wasn’t indeed omnipotent. They can’t co exist.

They not only can but do exist in God. 2nd Reading 22nd Sun. Ordinary Time, Jas. 1:17

" Every best gift, and every perfect gift , is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of evil.

So according to Catholic teaching and doctrine in God there is no change. He knows all future and past things, events, thoughts, etc. He also knows all possible things, events, thoughts, and all conditional things as well and His creative act has planned for all contingencies. We cannot understand how this possible because we project our own human condition and understanding onto God, which is an error. We cannot know much about God in this life except that he created all that is for His greater honor and glory, and this he shows by sharing existence with all the universe. We can know something about his nature in a small way since we know all goodness of his creation is a faint reflection of His own Goodness, Truth, etc.

 

[ManRay]

His nature is beyond the knowledge of any human mind.

I totally agree.

 

[SonCatcher]

I have heard this before. It is a classic Atheist objection. Often, it is combined with the property of omnibenevolence.

"If God is omniscient and omnibenevolent, He must be powerless to stop the evil that is in the world.

"If God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, He must be ignorant of evil.

“If God is omniscient and omnipotent, he must be malevolent to allow evil.”

To that I answer that it is because of God’s omnibenevolence that He does not stop evil. In order to stop evil, He would either have to remove the ability to choose our own actions or He would have to directly attack the would-be offender prior to committing the offense. Neither option would be benevolent.

Instead, He calls people to heal the evil that occurs in the world and participate in His healing work. They do so in many ways: as doctors, soup kitchen volunteers, artists, counselors, etc.

 

[ManRay]

I have heard this before. It is a classic Atheist objection. Often, it is combined with the property of omnibenevolence.

"If God is omniscient and omnibenevolent, He must be powerless to stop the evil that is in the world.

"If God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, He must be ignorant of evil.

“If God is omniscient and omnipotent, he must be malevolent to allow evil.”

To that I answer that it is because of God’s omnibenevolence that He does not stop evil. In order to stop evil, He would either have to remove the ability to choose our own actions or He would have to directly attack the would-be offender prior to committing the offense. Neither option would be benevolent.

Instead, He calls people to heal the evil that occurs in the world and participate in His healing work. They do so in many ways: as doctors, soup kitchen volunteers, artists, counselors, etc.

That’s an argument against evil, and I actually understand that we cannot have/know right without knowing wrong. I understand the free will argument. To get off topic though - a better way to posit the problem of evil is to phrase it as - Why would a benevolent god allow* gratuitous evil or violence* Its one thing to commit a murder as free will, but what do we have regarding serial killers? Some of which have possibly killed hundreds of people. Does that help us to understand what is wrong any better? Do we have more freewill than what we already had? Did Hitler need to kill millions of people for the world to understand we shouldn’t be doing that??? Sounds like the law of diminishing returns.

 

[SonCatcher]

That’s an argument against evil, and I actually understand that we cannot have/know right without knowing wrong. I understand the free will argument. To get off topic though - a better way to posit the problem of evil is to phrase it as - Why would a benevolent god allow* gratuitous evil or violence* Its one thing to commit a murder as free will, but what do we have regarding serial killers? Some of which have possibly killed hundreds of people. Does that help us to understand what is wrong any better? Do we have more freewill than what we already had? Did Hitler need to kill millions of people for the world to understand we shouldn’t be doing that??? Sounds like the law of diminishing returns.

Sorry, I think I see the distinction in your OP, now.

Other properties of God which are relevant are Immutable and Eternal. You seem to presuppose Eternal, as well.

But logically this would lead to the fact that he wouldn’t be able to change its own state/mind in regards to the intervention

In fact, this is what Immutable means. You have deduced another of God’s attributes. Congratulations.

 

[ManRay]

Sorry, I think I see the distinction in your OP, now.

Other properties of God which are relevant are Immutable and Eternal. You seem to presuppose Eternal, as well.

In fact, this is what Immutable means. You have deduced another of God’s attributes. Congratulations.

Instead of working from memory - I just looked it up. I obviously didn’t express it clearly. It’s called the OandO paradox, and I’m not sure It’s valid because it seems to have to define god in a certain way for it to work.

*The omnipotence and omniscience paradox can be summed up as “Does God know what he’s going to do tomorrow? If so, could he do something else?” If God knows what will happen, and does something else, he’s not omniscient. If he knows and can’t change it, he’s not omnipotent. *

I think this denies the perfection aspect of god. I would argue that there is no cause for any of it to happen because a perfect thing wouldn’t need to change or veer.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I have heard this before. It is a classic Atheist objection. Often, it is combined with the property of omnibenevolence.

"If God is omniscient and omnibenevolent, He must be powerless to stop the evil that is in the world.

"If God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, He must be ignorant of evil.

“If God is omniscient and omnipotent, he must be malevolent to allow evil.”

To that I answer that it is because of God’s omnibenevolence that He does not stop evil. In order to stop evil, He would either have to remove the ability to choose our own actions or He would have to directly attack the would-be offender prior to committing the offense. Neither option would be benevolent.

Instead, He calls people to heal the evil that occurs in the world and participate in His healing work. They do so in many ways: as doctors, soup kitchen volunteers, artists, counselors, etc.

And here is a counter question. Whether or not God exists, evil still exists. So how is the universe any better without God?

 

[sw85]

I was reading somewhere in regards to logic, and something interesting came up in reference to god. It was posited that if god is all knowing, then it would certainly already know how it would intervene to change/sustain the course of history through his attribute of omnipotence or all powerfulness ness….But logically this would lead to the fact that he wouldn’t be able to change its own state/mind in regards to the intervention which would show that it wasn’t indeed omnipotent. They can’t co exist.

They can, by virtue of His omnipresence.

Since God is omnipresent, He is not limited in space or in time, meaning all moments are eternally enduring in Him. Which means He experiences all moments, simultaneously, forever.

The objection you outline ignores this fact, assuming God exists in a linear time stream, so that He knows things “before” they happen. He doesn’t. He knows things as they happen.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Instead of working from memory - I just looked it up. I obviously didn’t express it clearly. It’s called the OandO paradox, and I’m not sure It’s valid because it seems to have to define god in a certain way for it to work.

*The omnipotence and omniscience paradox can be summed up as “Does God know what he’s going to do tomorrow? If so, could he do something else?” If God knows what will happen, and does something else, he’s not omniscient. If he knows and can’t change it, he’s not omnipotent. *

I think this denies the perfection aspect of god. I would argue that there is no cause for any of it to happen because a perfect thing wouldn’t need to change or veer.

Oh, yea of little faith. God knows all actual, possible, and conditional facts, events, thoughts of the past, present, and future and Providently orders and Governs the universe accordingly by His abosolutely Free Will. Thus there is no conflict between Omniscience and Omnipotence. Remember God’s ways are not our ways. He allows evils to occur not because he could not have prevented them but to accomplish a greater good ( which we may never know). So there is no paradox at all. The error we puny humans make is to ascribe human modes of thinking and acting and human motives to God.