Omniscience, free-will, predestination

[Philthy]

Is this what you mean by deterministic?

“The philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including every human event, act, and decision is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs.”

Here is what you said earlier:
Hitetlin:

if …the outcome of the event is not subject to variation or chance, …it is determined.

I see some differences in the two definitions, but I simply want to know precisely what you mean by “deterministic universe”

 

[Lazerlike42]

It seems to me as that these “side issues” get to the very heart of the discussion. They are not side issues at all, but rather extensions of the central discussion which are appropriate for the understanding of the central question.

I would like to introduce the scientific aspect of this conversation, that being the nature of time as a dimension (the 4th dimension). It seems to me that if Hitetlen wishes to use reason, he must concede this understanding. Given that, the statement

Hitetlen:

God is outside the time and can observe the future directly. This is nonsense, because the future has not happened yet.

is not correct.

 

[Anonymous_1]

have you ever thought about time?

which way does it flow?
the preset is the past…this present momet…past before you can even mention it…
the past is gone and the future is not here yet…what is time?

time is complete…not for us though…b/c we are in time and space…God exists outside time and space…time is complete…

 

[cynic]

Philthy:

For your conclusion to be valid, you need to demonstrate that the individuals involved in alleged free will activities are NOT determining those outcomes, or you need to demonstrate that something else is responsible for the determination of those outcomes.

That’s easy to argue against. God created every neural connection in your brain, or at least caused every neural connection in you brain to occurr the way it did, knowing the exact events/circumstances that would occur to make them connect that way. God created every inclination of your soul. The combination of these things means everything you do, your reaction to every situation, every choice you make - the way you “choose” to think and be - this is all known. That “something else” responsible for the determination of those outcomes is ultimately God. It’s unavoidable. That is, if you want to believe in a foreknowing God.

Where free will fits into all this I don’t know since - even in theory - alternative choices cannot exist, or more precisely the ability to choose differently does not exist, as one cannot change a set future.

 

[Philthy]

cynic:

That’s easy to argue against…

Argument, per se, is not what we are interested in. We would like to hear a valid, logical and effective argument.

cynic:

God created every neural connection in your brain.

Well that didnt take long - you are off topic with the first half of your first sentence! We are discussing the relationship between KNOWLEDGE and FREE WILL. “Creating” is not part of the discussion of knowledge. Creation is an ACT. Therefore the rest of your (name removed by moderator)ut is irrelevent to the discussion at hand. Sorry to be so blunt, but I have already covered in the post you quoted - and that wasnt the first time, either.
BTW, where did you come up with this tid-bit? Did you just make it up? If you expect to offer a rational argument you must stick to the topic and presents facts, not speculation.

cynic:

God created every inclination of your soul…

Again, irrelevent and speculative.

cynic:

The combination of these things means everything you do, your reaction to every situation, every choice you make - the way you “choose” to think and be - this is all known. That “something else” responsible for the determination of those outcomes is ultimately God. It’s unavoidable. That is, if you want to believe in a foreknowing God. .

“Foreknowing” and acting are unrelated. You have applied the conclusions that you reached based on Gods knowledge AND supposed ACTIONS (ie “created”) and applied them as being attributable to God’s “foreknowledge”. That is simply invalid. This is precisely the same error Hitetlin keeps making - why dont you go back and read the posts?

cynic:

Where free will fits into all this I don’t know since - even in theory - alternative choices cannot exist, or more precisely the ability to choose differently does not exist, as one cannot change a set future.

**The fact that the “ability to choose differently” does not exist in no way eliminates the freedom of will to decline choosing differently. They exist simultaneously. **
You are stumbling on the same issue as Hitetlin, and the same issue that I brought up in my first post - would you please read it?
The only thing that your argument demonstrates knowledge is what it means to KNOW something.
An event of the past involving a choice is known and the outcome is unchangeable.
Was a free will choice made? Yes
Does our knowledge of the outcome influence the reality of the choice that was made? No
Is it possible to alter the choice that was made? No
The inability for a different outcome exists simultatneously with the exercise of free will, and anyone’s knowledge of the outcome - is irrelevent.
Every objection that has been raised to this point involves the entity with knowledge ACTING on that knowledge - and that is simply not part of this discussion.

 

[Mordocai]

God also has free will