On Abortion and IVF

[Biggie]

Very well said. That is exactly what I believe. It took a long time for me to come to that point. Not that I am completely obedient, I fall short like any sinner, but I do my best to follow the teaching of the Church.

*The Rule of St Benedict *has been a big help.
osb.org/rb/text/toc.html#toc

I particularly recommend Chapters 4, 5 and 7. I always tell people, “just follow those, and getting to heaven will be a piece of cake.” …especially Chapter 4:

See? Easy…

Killer. No.'s 1-43 produces No. 44 and 45 in me. I can only pray this does not become the Lord’s checklist. Such devotions could make me hopeless, but I keep thinking the Lord has to have a place for someone who at least turned back. Maybe a place just outside the door, where I could maybe listen but not be seen. That would be okay.

 

[rlg94086]

Killer. No.'s 1-43 produces No. 44 and 45 in me. I can only pray this does not become the Lord’s checklist. Such devotions could make me hopeless…

I don’t look at it as a checklist, and I certainly don’t believe the Lord does either. I read through this list in the same way I read the Sermon on the Mount. The idea is to reflect on them and change your heart. In fact, if you truly get #1 correct and its partner #2 (again…piece of cake, right? ), the rest should follow naturally. In humility, with prayer to the Holy Spirit, who can help us pray to the Father and the Son, we all have to work on this.

Biggie:

…but I keep thinking the Lord has to have a place for someone who at least turned back. Maybe a place just outside the door, where I could maybe listen but not be seen. That would be okay.

Gospel of Luke:

28 I tell you, among those born of women, no one is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

 

[Catherine555]

I would guess by the same reasoning, we could say the food we eat remains on the outside of our bodies. In fact in never goes inside our bodies from the time it is ingested to the time it is expelled, granted a portion of it is extracted and absorbed. It is merely pushed through tubes which open to the outside air.

Yes, precisely. Now you are getting it. That’s the exact analogy that comes to my mind. Too bad you’re not taking it seriously.

 

[Catherine555]

Which other sources are superior to Christ and the Church He speaks through? I am genuinely interested in trying to understand how you would reason there is a superior source?

I would say Christ is speaking generally when he speaks through the Church. He’s also speaking through a human medium when he himself is divine also. I cannot equate the teaching of the His Church with Himself. There’s a distance for me between the too. I believe the Church to be a very good source when it comes to God’s will for us but I also know we are under His judgment alone and it is he alone who will judge me in the end.

I do have a great trust in myself when it comes to technological questions which this is. I do have confidence in myself based many years of study and an inquisitiveness that I see reflected in my own daughter. Though I must say hers is superior to mine.

I also find the voice of experience to be a great source. For example, I truly appreciate Biggie’s perspective.

 

[Catherine555]

Very well said. That is exactly what I believe. It took a long time for me to come to that point. Not that I am completely obedient, I fall short like any sinner, but I do my best to follow the teaching of the Church.

*The Rule of St Benedict *has been a big help.
osb.org/rb/text/toc.html#toc

I particularly recommend Chapters 4, 5 and 7. I always tell people, “just follow those, and getting to heaven will be a piece of cake.” …especially Chapter 4:

See? Easy…

What ever happened to “This is my commandment: LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I LOVE YOU” (Jn 15:12)?

I love simplicity. Though one piece of advice I like to live by these days is the truth does not have to hurt. It’s a great way to heal your relationships and solve conflicts.

 

[rlg94086]

What ever happened to “This is my commandment: LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I LOVE YOU” (Jn 15:12)?

I love simplicity. Though one piece of advice I like to live by these days is the truth does not have to hurt. It’s a great way to heal your relationships and solve conflicts.

Please see items #1 and 2 on the list. I already explained it. As long as you actually apply Jesus’ commandment you quoted and don’t just hold a relativistic, “loosey-goosey” understanding whereby sin is not just tolerated but embraced, then I am all for simplicity.

 

[Catherine555]

I am confident you will reach the right decision, and in the way a father can understand it I understand the needs, pressures and emotions. My daughter has an MBA, is employed full time as is her husband, and somehow accomplishes this and I kind of see it as a little miracle. And really, from where I sit, I can’t honestly say we settled for second best.

Thanks for the confidence. Next step for me ultrasound followed by another ultrasound a week later. These are to check the integrity of my ovaries and uterus after surgery last month. I had scarring on the outside of the uterus (this means scientifically speaking the ‘inside’ is what I was calling the outside of me in earlier posts), cysts on both ovaries and my right ovary was ‘scartissued’ to my hip, that still hurts.

I’ve learned a lot from my friend who is going through the same thing in different order though. Her surgery is coming while I already had mine. But she already had her ultrasounds. So we are prepping each other for our next procedures and comparing notes.

BTW, my surgery was bumped up so that I could travel and become a God Mother once again. I consider my God daughter a huge blessing for my health because I might have put off the surgery as one health advisor was telling me to do. From the beginning she suspected all my test were needless. But for my future God daughter’s sake bumped up the surgery so we wouldn’t miss her baptism. Glad I found out about this sooner rather than later. It was a surprise for me when the surgery diagnosed my endometriosis.

Hope you all have a great weekend. I’ve learned a lot from the posts. I have a lot of reading and praying to do. God bless.

 

[fix]

I would say Christ is speaking generally when he speaks through the Church. He’s also speaking through a human medium when he himself is divine also. I cannot equate the teaching of the His Church with Himself.

So, how do you know when He is speaking through the magisterium and when He is not?

There’s a distance for me between the too. I believe the Church to be a very good source when it comes to God’s will for us but I also know we are under His judgment alone and it is he alone who will judge me in the end.

Right, He will judge each of us but what has that to do with what we are talking about?

I do have a great trust in myself when it comes to technological questions which this is. I do have confidence in myself based many years of study and an inquisitiveness that I see reflected in my own daughter. Though I must say hers is superior to mine.

I also find the voice of experience to be a great source. For example, I truly appreciate Biggie’s perspective.

We are back to that relativism thing again. If we each are our own Pope then the Holy Spirit must be very confused because He says one thing to you, one thing to the Church, and millions of other differing things to each person.

Truth cannot contradict truth so some one is very wrong in all this. Surely, God was serious when He founded His Church and gave the authority to Peter?

 

[Biggie]

. Glad I found out about this sooner rather than later. It was a surprise for me when the surgery diagnosed my endometriosis.

Had to be a sinking feeling, and the uncertainty of the future is almost as bad as the diagnosis. But you know, medical skill and knowledge in this discipline is pretty awesome and you just can’t tell so don’t despair no matter what the news.

 

[Catherine555]

So, how do you know when He is speaking through the magisterium and when He is not?

Right, He will judge each of us but what has that to do with what we are talking about?

We are back to that relativism thing again. If we each are our own Pope then the Holy Spirit must be very confused because He says one thing to you, one thing to the Church, and millions of other differing things to each person.

Truth cannot contradict truth so some one is very wrong in all this. Surely, God was serious when He founded His Church and gave the authority to Peter?

Certainly God was serious when he founded his Church. Certainly there is a difference between DOGMA and teachings, between quotes and the invocation of infallibility. The way you all divide up between truth and falsehood between black and white is rather frightening to me.

 

[Catherine555]

Had to be a sinking feeling, and the uncertainty of the future is almost as bad as the diagnosis. But you know, medical skill and knowledge in this discipline is pretty awesome and you just can’t tell so don’t despair no matter what the news.

True and you know these places push IVF for the same reason that OB’s push c-sections at the rate they do in this country: because it’s easy and lucrative for them. The big worry for me is how I started explaining my health on this forum. I’m 34. I’m running out of time. Also, the endometriosis is cutting back my time even more.

 

[Catherine555]

But, truth cannot contradict truth. There is only one magisterium and only one Holy Spirit.

Sorry, but following Christ is not being a Pharisee. We follow Christ, through His magisterium, because we love Him.

Christ said to the people about the Pharisees to do exactly as they tell you to do, but do not be hypocrites as they are. Christ said they had the seat of authority.

The Church is always right in these matters. He who hears you hears Me. Right?

I’d like to connect this Pharisee comment with the later 70 point checklist. Don’t get me wrong it’s a good check list. Very useful like say a good examination of conscience before confession. But the problem with checklists, with these written rules of right and wrong is the danger of looking at these lists and saying I’m all good. I have not sinned like others have so I’m okay. The beauty of the simplicity that I prefer is that you must internalize your faith. It’s not a list of rules but rather a way of living. You must ask yourself every time am I acting out of love for God and for my neighbor, my brother.

If I run the risk of missing the truth because I refuse to accept these checklist as the only and absolute truth then you run the risk of not internalizing your faith and making mistakes whenever you hit an area that is off the list. That’s a Pharisee. Someone who is hypocritical. And in my reading of the bible they are the ones who got the most criticism from Christ. Not the woman with five husbands. She was told not to sin but yet she was the one God chose to reveal his divinity to and you know what she ate it up while the Pharisees rejected him.

 

[Biggie]

True and you know these places push IVF for the same reason that OB’s push c-sections at the rate they do in this country: because it’s easy and lucrative for them. The big worry for me is how I started explaining my health on this forum. I’m 34. I’m running out of time. Also, the endometriosis is cutting back my time even more.

Sort of like some young unmarried women who hit 30 feel. And yeah, when the time is past you do look back on those years of little children with a little melancholy, at least if you’re me. You grow up with kids all running over eachother (siblings). Then comes your own kids and the crazy years. It was snotty noses and kids all your life, and then suddenly, poof, it’s done. But the time clock is running on life and with each phase there is the sadness, challenges, and the need to learn a new way to live.

I have arm wrestled God to exhaustion over my personal “sticky” problem and have never understood why he doesn’t see it my way. I’ve yelled at him a little, tried quitting talking to him, bargained with him, went to the saints for prayers, made novenas. He hasn’t budged for years. I think if he just did what I need him to do for me, this one big thing, it would all be so much better for me and without it I don’t know what will happen long term. He just won’t do it, and I am left with believing he is in the picture for me and knows what he’s doing, or believing something else. But he has already done great things for me, and if he wants me to suffer through this, then he must know why and so I’m giving in to him. … But I’m still gonna pester him over it.

Well, the best games are those won in the last seconds!

 

[rlg94086]

I’d like to connect this Pharisee comment with the later 70 point checklist. Don’t get me wrong it’s a good check list. Very useful like say a good examination of conscience before confession. But the problem with checklists, with these written rules of right and wrong is the danger of looking at these lists and saying I’m all good. I have not sinned like others have so I’m okay. The beauty of the simplicity that I prefer is that you must internalize your faith. It’s not a list of rules but rather a way of living. You must ask yourself every time am I acting out of love for God and for my neighbor, my brother.

Hmm…well, while I see your point, I would have to say that if someone has truly accomplished all 70, they couldn’t think of themselves as superior to others:

1. In the first place, to love the Lord God with the whole heart, the whole soul, the whole strength.
2. Then, one’s neighbor as oneself.
3. Not to be proud.
4. To attribute to God, and not to self, whatever good one sees in oneself.
5. Not to wish to be called holy before one is holy; but first to be holy, that one may be truly so called.
6. To beware of haughtiness.

Quite frankly, if you actually meet someone who has accomplished all of those items St. Benedict listed, you have most probably met a living saint. No one should, as you say in the following quote, consider the “checklist” “the only and absolute truth.” If someone says that, they are being foolish. I agree with you - the best way to use the list is as an examination of conscience.

Catherine555:

If I run the risk of missing the truth because I refuse to accept these checklist as the only and absolute truth then you run the risk of not internalizing your faith and making mistakes whenever you hit an area that is off the list. That’s a Pharisee. Someone who is hypocritical. And in my reading of the bible they are the ones who got the most criticism from Christ. Not the woman with five husbands. She was told not to sin but yet she was the one God chose to reveal his divinity to and you know what she ate it up while the Pharisees rejected him.

Sure, but don’t be too hasty to judge another as a Pharisee. In doing so, you are most likely sinning and/or being hypocritical yourself. Remember, “Pharisees” are sinners, just like you and me. If you think you are better, because you are not a Pharisee…well, that would be pride.

 

[fix]

Certainly God was serious when he founded his Church. Certainly there is a difference between DOGMA and teachings, between quotes and the invocation of infallibility. The way you all divide up between truth and falsehood between black and white is rather frightening to me.

Do you think only things declared “infallible” or “dogma” are true and irreformable?

 

[fix]

I’d like to connect this Pharisee comment with the later 70 point checklist. Don’t get me wrong it’s a good check list. Very useful like say a good examination of conscience before confession. But the problem with checklists, with these written rules of right and wrong is the danger of looking at these lists and saying I’m all good. I have not sinned like others have so I’m okay. The beauty of the simplicity that I prefer is that you must internalize your faith. It’s not a list of rules but rather a way of living. You must ask yourself every time am I acting out of love for God and for my neighbor, my brother.

If I run the risk of missing the truth because I refuse to accept these checklist as the only and absolute truth then you run the risk of not internalizing your faith and making mistakes whenever you hit an area that is off the list. That’s a Pharisee. Someone who is hypocritical. And in my reading of the bible they are the ones who got the most criticism from Christ. Not the woman with five husbands. She was told not to sin but yet she was the one God chose to reveal his divinity to and you know what she ate it up while the Pharisees rejected him.

Let me quote the last Pope that I think will serve as a reply here:

The moral prescriptions which God imparted in the Old Covenant, and which attained their perfection in the New and Eternal Covenant in the very person of the Son of God made man, must be* faithfully kept and continually put into practice *in the various different cultures throughout the course of history. The task of interpreting these prescriptions was entrusted by Jesus to the Apostles and to their successors, with the special assistance of the Spirit of truth: “He who hears you hears me” (Lk 10:16). By the light and the strength of this Spirit the Apostles carried out their mission of preaching the Gospel and of pointing out the “way” of the Lord (cf. Acts 18:25), teaching above all how to follow and imitate Christ: “For to me to live is Christ” (Phil 1:21).

No damage must be done to the *harmony between faith and life: the unity of the Church *is damaged not only by Christians who reject or distort the truths of faith but also by those who disregard the moral obligations to which they are called by the Gospel (cf. 1 Cor 5:9-13). The Apostles decisively rejected any separation between the commitment of the heart and the actions which express or prove it (cf. 1 Jn 2:3-6). And ever since Apostolic times the Church’s Pastors have unambiguously condemned the behaviour of those who fostered division by their teaching or by their actions.38

In particular, as the Council affirms, "the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether in its written form or in that of Tradition, has been entrusted only to those charged with the Church’s living Magisterium, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ".41 The Church, in her life and teaching, is thus revealed as “the pillar and bulwark of the truth” ( 1 Tim 3:15), including the truth regarding moral action. Indeed, “the Church has the right always and everywhere to proclaim moral principles, even in respect of the social order, and to make judgments about any human matter in so far as this is required by fundamental human rights or the salvation of souls”.42

Veritatis splendor

So, my point is the Church is the authority in these matters. How can we reconcile rejecting Her teaching and saying we are fauthful at the same time? It is not simply “checklists” as in some form of legalism but we obey because we love God.

 

[Ruthie]

Here are some questions that poke holes in the argument that it’s okay to use IVF as long as no “surplus embryos” are produced.

Say you get two live babies from 10 implanted ones. Do you think that if you could conceive naturally that you would have had 8 miscarriages out of ten pregnancies? If not, weren’t up to 8 babies sentenced to death just as effectively as if they became the subject of research?

So the scientists are keeping a few frozen babies for you. What happens to them if something happens to you, like a hysterectomy, or death? Will they remain in the freezer forever? Or will they eventually have to be moved to make room for more? What happens to them then?

I am not anti-science. I’ve got a good, analytical and rational mind. I am also compassionate. But I will go with the Church. And I will love children produced by IVF just like I love the rest of them.

Ruthie

 

[sabla01]

Say you get two live babies from 10 implanted ones. Do you think that if you could conceive naturally that you would have had 8 miscarriages out of ten pregnancies? If not, weren’t up to 8 babies sentenced to death just as effectively as if they became the subject of research?

“Sentenced to death???” No, that’s not what I did. When I did IVF I viewed it as finally giving my embryos a chance. I had numerous ectopic pregnancies and miscarriages. My husband and I could create an embryo but it never traveled where it should (stayed in the fallopian tubes) or if it did, it did not implant in a “healthy” part of my uterus. In fact I had 3 tubals and 4 miscarriages. IVF placed the embryos exactly where they needed to be. Usually the doctor implanted 2 or 3. Then - I ate right, avoided stress, and desperately tried to do what I could to make sure that each embryo had a chance to LIFE. We did not view any of the embryos as sacrificial lambs or a necessary casualty. Every single embryo was our baby and we treated them as such.

So the scientists are keeping a few frozen babies for you. What happens to them if something happens to you, like a hysterectomy, or death? Will they remain in the freezer forever? Or will they eventually have to be moved to make room for more? What happens to them then?

This is where I will absolutely have to concede to you. When I first did IVF I absolutely felt I considered everything. It was only later that I really faced this. I have 4 frozen embryos that I plan to have implanted in the next 2 weeks. What happens to these babies, if something should happen to me before then? It terrifies me. If my husband and I decide to do IVF again (and that is a distinct possibility) we have already decided that we will only create the embryos that we plan to implant at that time. No more than that - and no freezing. It is definitely something someone should consider before going through with IVF. I am glad that you brought it to light.

God bless

 

[kyria]

“Sentenced to death???” No, that’s not what I did. When I did IVF I viewed it as finally giving my embryos a chance. I had numerous ectopic pregnancies and miscarriages. My husband and I could create an embryo but it never traveled where it should (stayed in the fallopian tubes) or if it did, it did not implant in a “healthy” part of my uterus. In fact I had 3 tubals and 4 miscarriages. IVF placed the embryos exactly where they needed to be. Usually the doctor implanted 2 or 3. Then - I ate right, avoided stress, and desperately tried to do what I could to make sure that each embryo had a chance to LIFE. We did not view any of the embryos as sacrificial lambs or a necessary casualty. Every single embryo was our baby and we treated them as such.

This is where I will absolutely have to concede to you. When I first did IVF I absolutely felt I considered everything. It was only later that I really faced this. I have 4 frozen embryos that I plan to have implanted in the next 2 weeks. What happens to these babies, if something should happen to me before then? It terrifies me. If my husband and I decide to do IVF again (and that is a distinct possibility) we have already decided that we will only create the embryos that we plan to implant at that time. No more than that - and no freezing. It is definitely something someone should consider before going through with IVF. I am glad that you brought it to light.

God bless

Sorry but no Catholic should be considering this before going through IVF because the Catholic Church teaches that we aren’t to undergo IVF to have children.

 

[sabla01]

Sorry but no Catholic should be considering this before going through IVF because the Catholic Church teaches that we aren’t to undergo IVF to have children.

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

God bless.