On Being in Communion with Rome

[Antonius_Lupus]

Well said, brother Hesychios. Triumphalism and lack of humility are I think the two greatest obstacles to reunion.

Both sides admitted that the misunderstanding that caused and perpetuated the schism came from both camps.

Blessings,
Marduk

Hmmm…this I can admit without difficulty. If this is what brother Hesychios meant with his words, then I have clearly misunderstood him. In which case, I apologize.

But to believe that all involved are in schism is something I cannot admit (which is how I understood him). It seems to me to suggest that the Catholic Church is somehow in schism (from whom if all are in schism?); an impossibility since she is the Church founded by Our Lord.

That being said, it is also right-teaching to admit and understand the role played by the Catholic Church in the schism, or rather the sins of her members. It is also right-teaching to admit that humility is required to restore the wounded unity which “subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose.”

 

[Hesychios]

…

But to believe that all involved are in schism is something I cannot admit (which is how I understood him). It seems to me to suggest that the Catholic Church is somehow in schism (from whom if all are in schism?); an impossibility since she is the Church founded by Our Lord.

Kyr Elias (Zoghby) of blessed memory asked “are we all schismatics?”

The answer, of course, is yes.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hmmm…this I can admit without difficulty. If this is what brother Hesychios meant with his words, then I have clearly misunderstood him. In which case, I apologize.

But to believe that all involved are in schism is something I cannot admit (which is how I understood him). It seems to me to suggest that the Catholic Church is somehow in schism (from whom if all are in schism?); an impossibility since she is the Church founded by Our Lord.

That being said, it is also right-teaching to admit and understand the role played by the Catholic Church in the schism, or rather the sins of her members. It is also right-teaching to admit that humility is required to restore the wounded unity which “subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose.”

Let me put it in plain language for you. Catholics are in schism from the Orthodox, the Orthodox are in schism from the Catholics. Christ established one Church, His one mystical body. We have separated from one another. We both carry the true faith the Apostles handed down to us, yet we refuse to be with one another. We both are in schism from each other.

 

[countertenor]

Kyr Elias (Zoghby) of blessed memory asked “are we all schismatics?”

The answer, of course, is yes.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Let me put it in plain language for you. Catholics are in schism from the Orthodox…

Well, I suppose it wasn’t a misunderstanding.

What I am saying, in plain language, is that the Church that Christ founded is the Catholic Church. She alone is the the Mystical Body of Christ. Elements of her exists outside her visible walls, such as the among the Orthodox, who have an imperfect communion with her. To speak of the Catholic Church as being in schism makes no sense. We constitute the Church of Christ fully…simple as that.

That is Catholic Orthodoxy.

Thus, in that sense, it is incorrect (and somewhat offensive) to say that we are all schismatics. It suggests that the Catholic Church is not to be indentified as Church of Christ, which contradicts the teachings of the Magisterium.

Please help me understand how it is permissible, based on authoritative and orthodox Catholic teaching, to say that the Catholic is also a schismatic.

I suppose this thread is now destined to completely go off the rails from it’s original subject. Sigh

 

[smad0142]

Unless of course the Church, as opposed to a church as defined by Dominus Ieus, is defined as the Pope and Bishops who make up the Apostolic College and all the clergy and laity united to them. Even in the Orthodox understanding, which greatly emphasizes the collegiality of the Apostolic College, this college is headed by the Pope. Any hierarchs who are not firmly united to the Pope in a perfect communion are not entirely within the Apostolic College as established by Christ. Therefore those not enjoying perfect communion within this College must be in a state of schism. To say that the Pope, and the Bishops in union with him, are in a state of schism from the very college the Pope is president of is not logical.

The West may have been heavy-handed with the East, helping to foster attitudes that would lead to schism, but Christ never said being an obedient Christian would be easy.

 

[mardukm]

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace…(Prayer of St. Francis)

Dear brother Antonius,

There is really no dichotomy between what you are saying and what our fellow Eastern brethren are saying.

I am pretty certain that when it is said that “we are all schismatics,” there is no intention of affirming that the Church as the mystical body of Christ is the cause of schism, or does not have the mark of unity. Note that brother Michael (Hesychios) has humbly admitted that even the EO are schismatics, yet you have to admit that he could not be possibly be claming that the Eastern Orthodox CHURCH herself as the mystical body of Christ is the cause of schism or that it does not possess the mark of unity.

The statement “we are all schismatics” simply means that we are all sinners. Wouldn’t you agree that when we sin, we become schismatics from the Church? And wouldn’t you agree that we are all sinners?

Applied to the issue of ecclesiastical communion, the statement “we are all schismatics” simply means NOT that the Church as the mystical body of Christ is the cause of schism or does not possess the mark of unity. Rather, it simply means that INDIVIDUAL Christians - whether priest, monk or layperson, whether Orthodox or Catholic - in the past and in the present, and even in the future, were, are, and will be the causes and perpetuators of the schism. We have to humbly admit this, brother Antonius, or else the work of unity can never go forward. If we - both Orthodox and Catholic - sit in triumphalist chairs thinking we have done nothing wrong, how would we ever expect to learn from the past, and look forward to a better future together as one Body in Christ?

Blessings,
Marduk

Well, I suppose it wasn’t a misunderstanding.

What I am saying, in plain language, is that the Church that Christ founded is the Catholic Church. She alone is the the Mystical Body of Christ. Elements of her exists outside her visible walls, such as the among the Orthodox, who have an imperfect communion with her. To speak of the Catholic Church as being in schism makes no sense. We constitute the Church of Christ fully…simple as that.

That is Catholic Orthodoxy.

Thus, in that sense, it is incorrect (and somewhat offensive) to say that we are all schismatics. It suggests that the Catholic Church is not to be indentified as Church of Christ, which contradicts the teachings of the Magisterium.

Please help me understand how it is permissible, based on authoritative and orthodox Catholic teaching, to say that the Catholic is also a schismatic.

I suppose this thread is now destined to completely go off the rails from it’s original subject. Sigh

 

[Aramis]

What I want to know is what being in communion with Rome means for those who are not Roman Catholics, but rather Catholics who are members of another self-governing church.

Being in communion with Rome is important to me because it’s biblical that Peter is the cornerstone of the church. (Not his confession, but he himself is, in St. John’s gospel.) His successor thus fills his place as rock of the church.

Without peter’s heir, one is in schism. One who realizes this is in mortal error if they are not in communion with peter’s heir. I realize this.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well, I suppose it wasn’t a misunderstanding.

What I am saying, in plain language, is that the Church that Christ founded is the Catholic Church. She alone is the the Mystical Body of Christ. Elements of her exists outside her visible walls, such as the among the Orthodox, who have an imperfect communion with her. To speak of the Catholic Church as being in schism makes no sense. We constitute the Church of Christ fully…simple as that.

That is Catholic Orthodoxy.

Thus, in that sense, it is incorrect (and somewhat offensive) to say that we are all schismatics. It suggests that the Catholic Church is not to be indentified as Church of Christ, which contradicts the teachings of the Magisterium.

Please help me understand how it is permissible, based on authoritative and orthodox Catholic teaching, to say that the Catholic is also a schismatic.

I suppose this thread is now destined to completely go off the rails from it’s original subject. Sigh

Antonius, even the Catholic Church doesn’t teach it that way. She says that the Orthodox are members of the true Church. We aren’t any fuller in the faith than they are. They have full Apostolic succession, they have kept the faith handed down by the Apostles and the Church Fathers. How can they be any less than us? The Magesterium teaches as such. We have separated from our brothers as our brothers have separated from us.

 

[mardukm]

Antonius, even the Catholic Church doesn’t teach it that way. She says that the Orthodox are members of the true Church. We aren’t any fuller in the faith than they are. They have full Apostolic succession, they have kept the faith handed down by the Apostles and the Church Fathers. How can they be any less than us? The Magesterium teaches as such. We have separated from our brothers as our brothers have separated from us.

OF COURSE the Catholic Church is “fuller in the faith” than the Orthodox! Don’t you know that the Orthodox affirm that we have ADDED to the Faith? By the infallible laws of logic and mathematics, we MUST have more of it than THEY do!

All kidding aside…I would say that the Orthodox not in communion with Rome have all the Faith EXCEPT -------- communion with Rome.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ConstantineTG]

OF COURSE the Catholic Church is “fuller in the faith” than the Orthodox! Don’t you know that the Orthodox affirm that we have ADDED to the Faith? By the infallible laws of logic and mathematics, we MUST have more of it than THEY do!

All kidding aside…I would say that the Orthodox not in communion with Rome have all the Faith EXCEPT -------- communion with Rome.

Blessings,
Marduk

That is what the Magesterium teaches. Its in the CCC.

 

[Ignatius]

Dear brother Antonius Lupus,

Hello! Long time no see! Glad to see your handle here again.

For me, being in communion with Rome generally means living the reality of the first millenium standard. Of course, this entails several aspects, which are:

1. Affirming that the position of the coryphaeus of the Church came from Christ Himself (as reflected in the model of the Apostolic college who had St. Peter as their coryphaeus), and thus being faithful to the form of governnance Christ intended for His Church.
2. Having the bishop of Rome as Court of final appeal when my local Church cannot settle an issue (i.e., it does not mean the Pope can arbitrarily interfere in the affairs of my Church), in accord with the standard of the first millenium Church.
3. My Church can look to the Church of Rome for material help when needed, in accord with the practice of the first millenium Church.
4. If the hierarchy of my Church is somehow impeded by secular authorities, we can depend on the bishop of Rome to watch out for us, in accord with his role in the first millenium Church.
5. We have someone who can settle disputes between bishops of different Churches (if the need arises), in accord with the canonical standard of the first millenium.

Blessings,
Marduk

This is expressed with such beauty and clarity. Thank you for this and may God richly bless you for this.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Antonius, even the Catholic Church doesn’t teach it that way.

I am afraid it does, brother. The Church of Christ is indentified with the Catholic Church. It always has been in Magisterial teaching. The Catholic Church does say that the Orthodox (along with properly baptized Protestants) are in an imperfect communion with the One Church of Christ, the Catholic Church.

Yes, the Orthodox have valid Apostolic succession, but they have been wounded (Rome has taught this since the schism began) in lacking communion with Rome.

The Orthodox are less than us, but only in the sense that they lack what they must fully have: communion with Rome. All other things they have maintained, a true miracle of God.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#I

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

That is what the Magesterium teaches. Its in the CCC.

Agreed…

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace…(Prayer of St. Francis)

Dear brother Antonius,

There is really no dichotomy between what you are saying and what our fellow Eastern brethren are saying.

I am pretty certain that when it is said that “we are all schismatics,” there is no intention of affirming that the Church as the mystical body of Christ is the cause of schism, or does not have the mark of unity. Note that brother Michael (Hesychios) has humbly admitted that even the EO are schismatics, yet you have to admit that he could not be possibly be claming that the Eastern Orthodox CHURCH herself as the mystical body of Christ is the cause of schism or that it does not possess the mark of unity.

The statement “we are all schismatics” simply means that we are all sinners. Wouldn’t you agree that when we sin, we become schismatics from the Church? And wouldn’t you agree that we are all sinners?

Applied to the issue of ecclesiastical communion, the statement “we are all schismatics” simply means NOT that the Church as the mystical body of Christ is the cause of schism or does not possess the mark of unity. Rather, it simply means that INDIVIDUAL Christians - whether priest, monk or layperson, whether Orthodox or Catholic - in the past and in the present, and even in the future, were, are, and will be the causes and perpetuators of the schism. We have to humbly admit this, brother Antonius, or else the work of unity can never go forward. If we - both Orthodox and Catholic - sit in triumphalist chairs thinking we have done nothing wrong, how would we ever expect to learn from the past, and look forward to a better future together as one Body in Christ?

Blessings,
Marduk

As always, brother Marduk, when you take the time to explain to me, I understand.

Thank you again.

I would appear that I have walked into a misunderstanding, for I can assent well to Marduk’s explanation of the phrase.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Unless of course the Church, as opposed to a church as defined by Dominus Ieus, is defined as the Pope and Bishops who make up the Apostolic College and all the clergy and laity united to them. Even in the Orthodox understanding, which greatly emphasizes the collegiality of the Apostolic College, this college is headed by the Pope. Any hierarchs who are not firmly united to the Pope in a perfect communion are not entirely within the Apostolic College as established by Christ. Therefore those not enjoying perfect communion within this College must be in a state of schism. To say that the Pope, and the Bishops in union with him, are in a state of schism from the very college the Pope is president of is not logical.

See that was exactly my point…where have you been? LOL.

The West may have been heavy-handed with the East, helping to foster attitudes that would lead to schism, but Christ never said being an obedient Christian would be easy.

There is great truth in this, IMO.

 

[RyanBlack]

See that was exactly my point…where have you been? LOL.

There is great truth in this, IMO.

Let’s just be clear that the great truth in this applies not only in the difficulty of obedience for those who fell into schism, but also to those Church leaders (including Popes) whose heavy-handed style of leadership (which seems not to take adequately into account Scriptural mandates about Church leadership) is partly responsible for driving people to schism.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Let’s just be clear that the great truth in this applies not only in the difficulty of obedience for those who fell into schism, but also to those Church leaders (including Popes) whose heavy-handed style of leadership (which seems not to take adequately into account Scriptural mandates about Church leadership) is partly responsible for driving people to schism.

Agreed completely.

 

[smad0142]

Constantine

You might want to quote the CCC to prove your point that the CC under the Pope is not the fullness of faith, or even more full than the EO.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Constantine

You might want to quote the CCC to prove your point that the CC under the Pope is not the fullness of faith, or even more full than the EO.

The underlined is new to me. I never said that.