On Being in Communion with Rome

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CCC 838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."
 
You are correct dear brother, you did not say that. But a close reading of that excerpt, especially the part you bolded and underlined would be invaluable to your understanding of what the Catechism is saying. “It lacks little to attain…” It can not attain the fullness of faith, which is a standard for the common celebration of the Lord’s Supper, if it already is in posession of the fullness of the faith. The “little” it is talking about is communion with Rome, as brother Marduk pointed out earlier.
 
Antonius_Lupus said:
Dear brethren,

This is mainly directed to my Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters, but anyone can answer of course. 😉

In my journey home to the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church, I spent a considerable amount of time discerning the Eastern Orthodox Church. It took much reading, a discussion with a Melkite Greek Catholic priest (formerly Orthodox), and a visit to a Melkite parish (St. Ignatios of Antioch, Augusta, GA) to help me overcome my doubts and to revert to the Catholic Faith. It would take some time AFTER my full initiation before I could finally say that Eastern Orthodoxy no longer had a “hold” over me…in the sense of being doubtful which church was the Church founded by Our Lord.

Indeed, I believe that my time studying and experiencing Eastern Catholicism with the Melkites played a crucial role in convincing me of the truth of Catholicism as a whole.

For me, as a Roman Catholic, and after all my time discerning, struggling, and seeking; being in communion with Rome means ALOT. It gives me the assurance that I am truly within the Church founded by Christ. It assures me that what I believe is Catholic Orthodoxy, and what I practice is true. Being in communion with Rome makes me feel certain that I am a Christian in the sense Christ fully intended…one in many respects with the Holy Fathers who also looked to Rome. I know through this communion that I lack nothing in what Christ intends and that I am a Christian of the most ancient kind.

But, being a Roman Catholic makes communion with Rome obvious, LOL. Indeed, for me the Pope of Rome is not only the “Patriarch of Patriarchs”, but he is also MY Patriarch…that is, the father of my own self-governing church.

What I want to know is what being in communion with Rome means for those who are not Roman Catholics, but rather Catholics who are members of another self-governing church.

Granted, you wouldn’t be Catholic if you weren’t in communion with Rome. But even still, what makes you cleave to Rome? I mean, there are plenty of Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches which mirror your own traditions and which can offer you much of the same things you find in your own self-governing Catholic churches.

What does being “in communion with Rome” mean to you guys? Why be in communion with Rome at all if you can be an Eastern Christian (with Apostolic succession!) without being in communion with Rome?

Then of course you have the many times that my own self-governing church has maligned, persecuted, and mistreated so many Eastern Catholics and Eastern Catholic Churches through history (and, sadly, even now).

Obviously, I am playing the “Devil’s Advocate” here, and may God forbid that the questions I have asked lead anyone to abandon communion with Rome (may it never be!!). :signofcross:

I just wanted to get some of yall’s thoughts.
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To me, it’s having the best of both worlds.
I like the rituals and theology of the Eastern Churches better than those of the RC, though. But I can still call honestly call myself “Catholic.”👍
 
I would like full and true communion, and the next pope elected to be from the east.

peace
 
Good morning to all!!! I suppose I’ll add my two cents for what they’re worth. While I fully recognize and acknowledge that the Orthodox do possess the fullness of the Catholic Faith (as they profess in the Creed), I also recognize that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of Orthodoxy. That being said, my main reason for remaining in communion with Rome is not necessarily because I find in the Catholic Church a fuller expression of the catholic Faith (although I do love the fact that within the Catholic Communion of Churches one will find Eastern/Byzantine, Oriental, Roman, etc. theology, liturgy, and the like all represented and respected). When I compare the two Communions, Orthodox and Catholic, side by side I see an equal amount of abuse, struggle for power, inner schism, inner tension, and the like. Upon seeing this I am led to think, “Why exchange one set of problems that I’ve dealt with all my life for a completely new set of problems?”

Personally I find the whole “follow the Successor of Peter” arguement difficult to take seriously once one recognizes that even within the Catholic Church there are 3 Successors of Peter, or rather 3 Patriarchal territories whose Patriarchs claim succession from Peter, Rome, Antioch and Alexandria. However, I do maintain communion with Rome because of the orginal order of honor established within the Pentarchy by two Ecumenical Councils.

That’s just my two cents after not getting much sleep (and what little I got having been received on the floor so as not to wake my poor wife with my constant tossing and turning). I’m sure what I said could be better expressed, but my brain just isn’t firing on all cylanders right now. 😛 I could also be wrong, which I fully and humbly admit. I am, after all, just a poor sinner. God bless you all. God bless the catholic Orthodox. And God bless the orthodox Catholics.
 
hazcompat said:
I would like full and true communion, and the next pope elected to be from the east.

peace
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I think the next Pope is more likely to be from Africa.

Anyway, the See at Rome does not need foreign bishops particularly, even if from the east. It needs a local boy.
 
Hesychios said:
I think the next Pope is more likely to be from Africa.

Anyway, the See at Rome does not need foreign bishops particularly, even if from the east. It needs a local boy.
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@Hesychois I agree with this.

@hazcompat: If you are talking about sui iuris churches, then the pope, as the western patriarch and head of the Latin Church, should be a western rite bishop.

Personal Note

The central question is if in fact, as She claims, if the Catholic Church as it appears today, contains the fullness of truth as it was handed down by Jesus Christ and the apostles, and if indeed is She the church founded by Jesus Christ Himself, or does Holy Orthodoxy contain the above. Through study and prayer I have discerned that in fact Holy Orthodoxy is the Church mentioned previously, and that to remain outside of Her is to risk eternal damnation and as such I seek to achieve communion with Her)

@Hesychois Out of curiosity if you dont mind, what jurisdiction do you fall under(feel free toignore this question)
 
No rite is better than the other or more important each is as important as the other that is why wheni make a visit to I believe it’s Ukranian Catholic Church about 20 miles away I am able to receive communion there because we are both apart of the Church established Jesus Christ.Because both are in union with Rome and we are all members of the Catholic Church Family.
 
Hesychios said:
I think the next Pope is more likely to be from Africa.

Anyway, the See at Rome does not need foreign bishops particularly, even if from the east. It needs a local boy.
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Agreed on both points. 🙂
 
The Pope will not be coming out of Africa most likely, that kind of idea is peddled mostly by the media who really has no idea about Vatican politics.

Cardinal Arinze is the most influential African prelate, but is really quite old to be elected. The Vatican as it is stacked now is still well within the control of the European prelates, and it does not seem likely that that will change soon. The Spanish Prefect at CDWDS is strongly papible, while Cardinals Levada and Burke have no chance so long as the USA is the world superpower.
Good money should be on Cardinal Llovera, the Spanish prefect. Another good guess would be Secretary of State Cardinal Bertone, who has become a huge power house in the Vatican and is appointing his fellow Salesians all over in Vatican positions.

My $0.02.
 
Being in communion with Rome means sharing the same faith. Faith in the same seven sacraments, and their validity. We can have differences in how that faith is expressed.

I am a former protestant who converted to Roman Catholicism, and am now moving eastward. I am enthralled with eastern spirituality and liturgy. It speaks to my soul more so now then the Roman liturgy and spirituality. I came to the Roman Catholic Church seeking authentic Christianity, but have encountered a Church that is weak, and easy and have since become disillusioned with what I see as the effeminateness in Western Catholic thinking and practice. Thank God for the Eastern Rites of the Church.
 
Augustus24 said:
Being in communion with Rome means sharing the same faith. Faith in the same seven sacraments, and their validity. We can have differences in how that faith is expressed.

I am a former protestant who converted to Roman Catholicism, and am now moving eastward. I am enthralled with eastern spirituality and liturgy. It speaks to my soul more so now then the Roman liturgy and spirituality. I came to the Roman Catholic Church seeking authentic Christianity, but have encountered a Church that is weak, and easy and have since become disillusioned with what I see as the effeminateness in Western Catholic thinking and practice. Thank God for the Eastern Rites of the Church.
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Certainly, I’ve heard Orthodox clerics remark that what they see as the moral/spiritual weakness of the Roman Catholic Church also makes them not to want to be in a hurry re: ecumenism with Rome.

Rome’s ecumenical vision, as evidenced by recent events involving the UGCC, is also very naive and downright objectionable.

I share with you your enthusiasm for the East. I just don’t know, at this time, how far East I want to go.

Alex
 
Alexander_Roman said:
Certainly, I’ve heard Orthodox clerics remark that what they see as the moral/spiritual weakness of the Roman Catholic Church also makes them not to want to be in a hurry re: ecumenism with Rome.

Rome’s ecumenical vision, as evidenced by recent events involving the UGCC, is also very naive and downright objectionable.

I share with you your enthusiasm for the East. I just don’t know, at this time, how far East I want to go.

Alex
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If today you hear His voice…I cannot be moved! That is how it should be with you. The state of indecision is not good. Be eager, even urgent to end your uncertainty. Even great ships can be storm tossed. Praying for you. in Christ

peace
 
hazcompat said:
If today you hear His voice…I cannot be moved! That is how it should be with you. The state of indecision is not good. Be eager, even urgent to end your uncertainty. Even great ships can be storm tossed. Praying for you. in Christ

peace
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Well Alex…I guess it is time we become Orthodox! 😃
 
I had a small facebook conversation with a friend who is orthodox. He maintains that my position of salvation is an Orthodox one and not a Catholic one. Is there any truth to it? I can hardly imagine not believing some thing could lead to the mystical departure of the Holy Spirit from my soul… At least I don’t think it works in those reductionist terms.

Me:
When I was an Anglican I vaguely knew about the Eastern Catholic Churches and from what I gathered they were hardly more than a room of smokes and mirrors. But they are more like miniatures of Orthodoxy. I’m not sure what you mean when you say we are allowed an opinion of our own? Every Christian is entitled to their own opinion, but to be part of the Catholic Church one must hold in common the faith that was given to all Christians by the Apostles. Nuance and interpretation is different from rejection. The immutable truths of faith are understood according to the local praxis of the Church. Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, Edessa all had their local schools in antiquity. True, through misunderstanding, ignorance and intolerance certain formularies were forced upon other traditions by the latin church in a way alien to their theological tradition. This was a mistake. The best way the different traditions can attest to the cathlocicity of the church is by holding the same faith believed by all; in the manner that is natural and fitting for the various traditions of the church.

Him:
Is it necessary for his salvation that an Eastern Catholic profess papal infallibility, or is he free to form his own opinion on the matter without risking loss of his salvation?

Me:
Salvation comes from the acquisition of the Holy Spirit. Where do we know for certain where the Holy Spirit manifests? In the Holy Mysteries of the Church of Christ and its ministry in the communion of saints living and reposed. To be enjoined in this mystical communion, one must hold the faith in it’s entirety, or at least be struggling to understand and defend it. Can the Spirit be found in individuals outside the Church? Possibly. Can individuals who claim to be part of the visible Church be lacking in the Spirit? Yes.

Heterodoxy is dicey.

Him:
I agree with you, but Rome at many times in its history would teach unequivocally that the rejection of any Catholic dogma removes the grace of the Holy Spirit from one’s soul, certainly including the dogma of papal infallibility. Your position is Orthodox, not Catholic.
 
Little Boy

Your idea would be Catholic if you include papal all the dogmas and doctrines of the Faith in your requirement that someone must hold the Faith in its entirety. If that is how you define entirety then you are OK! 👍
 
smad0142 said:
Little Boy

Your idea would be Catholic if you include papal all the dogmas and doctrines of the Faith in your requirement that someone must hold the Faith in its entirety. If that is how you define entirety then you are OK! 👍
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Yessir I do.

Here was my response

“I think there is a degree to which we can acknowledge the spirit working outside the church. Person’s baptisms if accepted would be an acknowledgment the person is in spirit to some degree. It’s like a ring or circuit. If you are are not h…olding the faith in it’s entirety. You are heterodox. Heterodoxy creates a disconnect with you and the communion of saints. With that disconnect you probably should refrain from partaking of the Holy Mysteries out of humility, lest they be to your condemnation as we profess in the Divine Liturgy. Being part of the Church means holding the universal faith. Holding that faith means believing that the See of Peter’s ministry and death, which is Rome, holds special honor and prerogatives given to it by Christ and enunciated at the First Vatican Council. Now that does not mean it can’t be nuanced or translated in different words as Father Tom Hopko said about Development of Faith. But to deny it outright breaks that person’s communion, and then things become questionable.”
 
In certain discussions I find myself more agreeable with an Orthodox over a Roman Catholic, especially one who identifies himself as “traditional”. Although I would never agree with an Orthodox about the Papacy, unless he agrees with me first ;)👍
 
ConstantineTG said:
In certain discussions I find myself more agreeable with an Orthodox over a Roman Catholic, especially one who identifies himself as “traditional”. Although I would never agree with an Orthodox about the Papacy, unless he agrees with me first ;)👍
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We will see if you feel the same way after being an Eastern Catholic for a year or 2… Most folks change their tune. 😃
 
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ciero:
We will see if you feel the same way after being an Eastern Catholic for a year or 2… Most folks change their tune. 😃

Well, I’ve been a Roman Catholic for 30+ years. We’ll see. I mean, I admit that the Pope may not always be fair from the Eastern Catholic perspective, but that is the opinion of the current one in office. The chair of Peter, his office, is what is important to me.

In any case, my new Patriarch will definitely outlive the current Pope given that he’s literally half his age. If the current Pope won’t grant his request, maybe the next one will. Or who knows, he may be Pope himself somewhere down the line.
 
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